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Explore your British Muslim identity Who do you think you are? British-Muslim? British Muslim? Muslim in Britain? English / Indian / Jordanian / Nigerian / Other Muslim in Britain?
Comments received: I want to see the article about british muslims
I am a British Muslim of mixed race and proud of my heritage. Sorry to against the grain, but I do not wear my religion on my sleeve and make it a point to state my religion. the fact that my religion is islam is my own private affair, just as you don't hear of british christians, or british hindus. I British of Pakistani origin. I grew up with pakistani and pakistani culture; religion is a belief. I think that's all we need to remember rather than politicising religion unnecessarily. british hindus british buddhists it's all absurd. country of origin, yes i am a white-british female, and im
I would described myself as Muslim British, My religion means a lot to me, it is my identity, a way to live.but also, I like Britain because, it is my second home and am proud to be British and belong to a country that respect human rights and put them into practice. I am muslim, born and raised in east london, 3rd generation Bangladeshi, i feel its very important to keep in touch with your roots and your culture,but also to follow the sunnat of rasullallah(saw). if not then we will loose our cultural identity and be vulnerable to adapt a lifestyle which displeases our lord(westeren values). I am a revert Muslim, I was born in
I am muslim and I am proud to be a UK citizen. I practice my faith and support the UK. We must stop extremists giving us a bad name such as Muslimsagainstcrusades..they do not speak on my behalf and lie alot. Alah is merciful, not hate filled. The days of killing non muslims and hate are over. Embrace the changes and do not bring back the dark ages. Luke- In Britain you have the right
i just like to say i am muslim and british my family aint muslim my mother and dad are brittish my grand parents was british their parent was british and so on but does this mean i dont have a right to choose my own relgion and trully worship the creator and how does democracy work because what i see it is failing and falling down the tubes they say democracy is good for us but look at the amount of crime in the uk look at how they keep people down and in their place look at how much debt we owe I am a revert to Islam.
I'm a Muslim, who was born in the UK.
If eid in Saudia Aabia is on Tuesday 16th it would be different from here because Glasgow are a couple of hours away from Saudia Arabia so it would be different. I am English.
First of all, your place of birth is, town and country. Secondly, your religion is what you believe in. Where ever you go, you will practice your faith. This may cause offence to others,but this is life, but when we are talking about truly worshipping the creator, there are things you just can not compromise within your religion. It has nothing to do with country,or nationality, etc.. Many countries today have lost morals and divine order. We were not put on earth to act in any manner. I am Muslim British. Muslim first because my
Whoa, too much hate in these comments! I am a muslim and once when i was wee little i played the part of joseph in the nativity play and of one of the three wise men! I do not know any muslim thats offended by the nativity play/christmas/English flag! I am quite proud/lucky to be born in such a wonderful country. However two points i would like to make are 1) Ignorance and scare mongering play big roles in people disliking muslims and islam 2)Us muslims need to stop letting morons (a.choudar Well i am not in England, sorry!. But if let me explain my point & i tell you. what i like to know is?In my poor English.. Why in the middle east, others religions are not welcome?. But in USA, & others countries you demand, & push for rights? The governments in the middle east, don`t give rights to foreign religion or protection! But Muslims demand & forced for rights, around the world?. Go & tell your governments & the Islamic law, that give before you ask around the world. Amen There is a need within British society to stand back and ask:
whats happinin all i think just be a good muslim without hurting and bothering any1 else an 4 da extrimist i dnt rekon they naw the basic rules of islam like comminting suicide is forbiden in islam an da reason people might not get along with muslims is because they dont understand the way of our life wich we have to teach to people well dats what i think anyway well making me a british muslim in uk is kewl! yes racism does happen alot, but i stick up 4 ma self and others, also i have had many fights in college just because of racist remarks, people just need to grow up, and not sterotype islam without knowing it!! PEACE Once again the murderous israeli regime is killing people not involved in direct conflict. There were no mitigating circumstances. However the reaction from muslims must NOT be violent. Peaceful resistance is the only option, the first of which should be boycott of oil supplies to Israeli govt supporters. The oil taps should be turned off to the USA unless it intervenes directly in Israeli. I am a British Muslim revert expat,
Greetings to all.
Modibhai - For a start Gunhilde is a female not a male name. I am glad the Raj is over since I believe it is wrong to settle in a foreign country and not integrate and the people of India were quite right to demand their homeland back. One aspect of racism however is when you expect certain rights for yourself which are not prepared to extend to others. Therefor it is racist to expect your own national integrity and refuse to recognise the same right for anyone else. Ring any bells? Muslim News Editor
Well Wahida,- So thrilled you feel that being a Muslim is enough to fulfill all your ambitions in life - since your level of English literacy is unlikely to fulfill the requirements of a possible future employer.
subhanala am a muslim thats it i dont care where i was born or where my parents are from am a muslim I'm Muslim first, British Somali second. race doesnt bother me as much as religion and nationality. is important for me to understand my religion is the most important aspect of my life, then be proud of my roots as Somali girl who moved to this country as a child. because i moved to this country i have duties and respect that i must adhere to. According to Islamic teaching,When we residie here as British national. we are enjoy the rights as British national. That why we are British Muslim. I am a Creature of Allah (The master of the universe). i am a muslim,beliver in one true God (Allah).i dont worry much about the envoronment i live in,whether it be in a jungle,desert,mountin,town,village,with good people around,or bad people,racist or atheist ,because we all belong to Allah and every soul will have to answer for it's action after it's depature from this life. It is very sad to read most of the comment by the non-muslims here but who could blame them. Lets be realistic, the astonishing silence by the muslims community leaders to openly, nationally condemning & challenging the likes of Anjem Choudhary and Islam4uk alike has tarnish the moderate decent law abiding muslims in UK.
My parents are from Pakistan, but I am proudly to say that I am British born muslim. When I go and visit Pakistan but its nice go there and see a different life to how we live but when the plane touches down in manchester I say Yes! I am home.
The problems in the middle east are caused by arabs, in particular the terrorist of hamas etc created by the arch terrorist arafat. There has never been a nation or people called palestinians. Israel who was renamed palestine by the romans.That is the ONLY reference to palestine.
Britain like many other western countries have wripped the identity of muslims around the world by showing only a violent few they fail to cover is real muslim people living normally like any other person in the world.children go to school adults go to work, they come home and enjoy family company not plan the next terrorist movement.They dont want you to see the peaceful side of muslims as they are afraid you will ditch the stereotypical identiy they persistantly tailored your minds to believe. I do not understand the question? Britain is a country and not a faith. I can understand you asking what does one feel about ones country of birth i.e. Pakistan, as a resident of Britain. What are the differences and how do you feel but Islam can only be compared with another faith or cult...... i.e as a Muslim, how do you feel about living in a Christian environment ? That question would make sense but Britain has nothing to do with it. Have you not noticed that Britain is a country? I regard myself as Muslim British. I was born and bred in the UK and this country has afforded me many opportunities, for example a good education. I am a qualified english teacher and wear full Hijab. I do not feel there is any conflict between the different dimensions of my identity. I thank Allah that I am both Muslim and British. Muslims can practice their faith freely in Britain, but Christians can't do the same in a number of muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afganistan. Christians are also constant victims of persecution from Muslims in coutries like Indonesia, Egypt and Malasia. My question is: why should we Western Christians give you Muslims "rights" and liberties you Muslims deny us in Muslim nations? Most immigrant groups have a desire to integrate and do so effectively. However, many Muslims actively segregate themselves, disrespect our laws and values, exploit all that our society has to offer (including the right to free speech) whilst simultaneously working towards turning it into an Islamic state (in which such rights would be denied them!). Islam is TOTALLY incompatible with civilised democracy, human rights, equality, freedom and scientific development. It's a back-ward looking system of indoctrination, bigotry and discrimination, from the dark ages of ignorance and tribal wars.
Unless Muslims born in the UK can
Gunhilde is factually incorrect. Ethnic cleansing is criminal intent, never have the muslim BME community sought to cleanse an area. In fact in the first upwardly mobile move in my childhood were the whites who moved in the 1960's ironically due to the strange smelling food. It was the whites who were incrdibly racist and the community leaders wanted to keep us quiet. We kept quiet when Powell was attacking us, if we had been more vocal and reactive much of the extremism wud not have happened. Mizan The irony is that it was the chattering classes who supported mass immigration as they supported secularisation and equal rights for women and homosexuals.
It is ironic that the early muslim immigrants to the USA were staunchley republican. This was because the GOP held fundamental values in keeping with islam, eg marriage between men and women. It is the overall loss in values in the UK that has created chasm within men/women, class, race and religion. From a cohesion viewpoint the absence of common values bewteen the muslims and the white poor is huge. Many issues are irreconcilable and this could be a problem at the election. who cares what ethnicity you come from, what defines my identity is my religiuos values.I was born and bread in london so yes ofcours uk is home for me.There is many great about this country it the acceptance of all faiths and belief there is alot of things to be proud of, our fine schools, public services oh yes and our medical health care gets paid for and the local chip shop :.p, i despair the govrmnt the invding of another country to get rid of weapons of mass destruction that wern't there I think it is important that a disctinction between being british and being engligh. Yes, my parents are from Pakistan, Yes they are british, Yes they are Muslims. But are they engligh? NO My friends, if you choose to live/reside in the UK then you are ENGLISH! That country deserves your allegiance. But, if you don't agree - then leave! But don't be a parasite and use that countries benefits & thereafter bad-mouth it. I'm sure if you look at the country you (your family) originated from - you will see that the 'grass is not greener on the other side...'
To Mohammed Rashid Ahmed, when you
Mohammed - So you choose to sit like Patience on a monument awaiting the arrival of your Islamic Eldorado in a country where non-Muslims outnumber Muslims 30 to 1 and in a climate which has never been so hostile to Islam.
Well Mohammed, why wait get yourself to one of the many muslim countries that exist now because waiting for the UK to be ruled by the quran might involve a long wait.
Salaam,
muslim fullstop 1. 5% of Black US residents are in
muslims sufer from an identity crisis, which others do not,not as much. They want to be good muslim,and at the sametime want to enjoy good things of british life,some of them not allowed by their religion. Muslims claimto be more religious than others,and still eleven percent of prisoners in UK jails are muslims. So Many issues out there!
Syed- I don't see much difference in your attitude and that of nationalists who say people shouldn't
Mohammed Islam is a way of life a code of existence not just a religon it GUIDES ALL ASPECTS OF YOUR LIFE marriage is half of Islam so it is important we marry within the boundary of what islam allows so we can implement islam RACE is not an issue my own auntie is white but she converted befor she met by uncle muslims marraying muslims of all races is OK but MARRYING OTHER FAITHS destroyes the implementaiton of islam in the home so is not acceptable, you cant implement islam without true faith What really worries many non-
Having served in the British Army for 8 years, and proud to have done so, i can tell your racist magazine that at least 42% of my fellow soldiers are supporters of the BNP. This has come about because of the racist attitude of the Muslim youth of Britain who don't appreciate the country that constantly provides for them. None of these ungrateful fools would last 10 minutes on the streets of Afghanistan because of their pampered upbringing. Support the country that gave refuge to your forefathers Our thoughts go out to the British and other nationalities together with Pakistan fighting the vile Taliban. These fanatics must and will be defeated to preserve freedom for man women and child. I know that the majority of British Muslims are backing all soldiers fighting a good cause.. My heart sinks every time I hear on the
Please open up this site to other topics!
I am a white, christian male. I've just reached my 15th year of service in the Royal Marine Commandos. In my team i have white, black, arab,chinese races; christian, muslim, atheist, buddist religions. The common denominator is we respect each other, would die for each other, eat, drink, socialise and fight alongside each other and each familiy accept us when we visit. These are my friends. Religion comes secondly to our respect and friendship. why can't the rest of you look past your religion? I am british-muslim. I don't feel like there is any conflict. British people just need to see a very good picture of islam and muslims before they can become muslims and i hope we all can help with that. Muslims living in the UK. This country has a more closer system of governance to Islam than any other country in the world.It assists its citizens and gives them respect and provides people with a general sense of tranuility and mutual respect. There is no surprise that the Prohophet sent a Muslim group to seek refuge in the lands of Christendom.We must prioritise our loyalty with our faith,for faith is the common denominator amongst migrat communities, the one aspect that defines us.
Iam an Indian born,wrkng in Saudi Arabia .Shortly to be in UK.
I am Muslim first, then Pakistani, then brown, then American, I take what I have INHERITED proudly. I love America, and respect all religions, there is freedom here, although I think there are more interesting places to live on Earth. A News blackout as regards Neil Lemington - I think not.- Shame on you Muslim News!
I was born in the Middle-east. I came into britain when I was 7- my parents both of them contributed to the public sector. Ethnically I am bengali. In terms of my religion I am Muslim and I am proud of it- it influences every aspect of my life. But make no mistake of this- when it comes down to country loyalty it lies undividedly to Great Britain. I love my country, because a country defines an individual. If there was any army I would join it is the BRITISH ARMY I was born in England and proud off it ,my religion is mine to know and I do not try to convert anyone into my religion.throughout my 68 years I have never know such clashes of faiths that excist as they do now.People are welcome to come to this country but to keep apart from our way of life is wrong,comunities that live apart will never live in harmony together.I lived with my family in Malaya for three year and it was a happy part of my life.Those who hate should look in the mirror first. I see myself as a British Muslim. I am British but also a Muslim. My values and my morality is based on my Islamic upbringing. My religion is very important to me and defines most things i do in life, from the clothes i wear, to the food i eat, to the type of job i do. I would not knowingly do anything which goes against my Islamic faith. However being british is also very important to me. Many aspects of britain i love, from the multicultural society, the coast, the manners, footie, freedom. you know, at the end of the day, when we remove the labels we slap on each other....what are we? we are, in fact, all the same...and with that..i wish, to all, peace. Putting the identity tag in front of someone's name i.e. British-Muslim or whatsoever is not all for someone to be fair enough in terms of responsibilities. What I understand, a responsible Muslim should prioritise the Dawah in order to let others know his/her identity. A person who has not been in the UK for four generations preceding him/her is a migrant. And the first and foremost responsibility lies on him is to pass the Message onto the English people. This is how someone can be a Muslim. I'm not a religious person and cannot comprehend the hatred or intolerance that can be generated between some followers of Christianity or Islam. UK a christian country?? It used to be Pagan before Christ came along. There is absolutely no reason why every religion cannot co-exist happily. It only becomes problematic when politics and personal prejudice are hidden under the rallying call of religion and thus that religion is exploited for personal gain. This must surely be offensive to God. I am a Christian, this is supposely a Christian country. If I were in a Muslim country I would have to abide by your rules and traditions. Why do muslim want to impose there laws and traditions to a Christian Country. Why should we take Christmas out of our Nativity plays. We do not live in a Muslim country!!! I would suggest if you are not happy with living in Britain then find a Muslim country were you can practice your faith without racism and contempt. There were alot of Islamic events about 5 years ago and last for about 5 years.. it was always in the papers and on the news.. it seems to have calmed down abit now.. thank God.. I`m British and was born in England and a Christian.. there was a bubbling up of British-born Muslims trying to express themselves and their furvurent faith.. they just wanted to say who they were it seems.. that has mostly died down now.. except for the odd event towards British returning soldiers.. Why Can't Muslims just accept that this is not a Muslim country, live peacefully or go somewhere in the Muslim world where your warped ideas are law, give us the Respect we give you As Salaam Alaikum,
As salaamu alikum, religions cross borders; imaginary lines drawn by men to separate and classify themselves as belonging this or that nationality, should not be drawn upon the map of our belief. I am a Muslim. I will be a Muslim no matter where I live. I am proud to have been born in England, and openly say so, even though I live in the U.S. The mere discussion of religion versus nationality is wrong, they are unrelated. Be a good Muslim, be an example, counteract the extremeism! Allah hu Akbar As salaamu alikum, being a muslim has to come first and then our nationality.we shuouldn't forget where we come from, even we were born in this country. As muslims we can contribute to our community. so i would say we r muslims when we attend hujj this national identy doesnt arise.
Iftikhar Ahmad, London - Muslims in this country have a far better way of life here than christians living in Islamic countries! Do you remember the white headmistress forced out of her school by muslims or the post office manager sacked because muslims complained that he wouldn't serve customers unless the spoke english! Open your blinkered eyes!
Why in your news today does it say "12 Muslims arrested"? Had the case arisen, would you have said " 12 Catholics or 12 Church of England's arrested"? i have lived in the uk for many years now.i live in a very mixed area and find that on the whole i am very much accepted for who i am and my religion.a few people feel that their legs are split between two countries.why? if you can not adjust then go back to your home and be happy.as for sport so long as no one is hurt enjoy the fixture why look for problems that are not there Iftikhar Ahmad - The rest of society has seen broadcasts of racist, misogynistic rants from speakers in your mosques. Your fellow believers parade in our streets with placards demanding the beheading of non muslims. We've had the London bombings, the attacks on Glasgow airport and recordings of would be bombers who feel that death is the appropriate punishment for enjoying yourself on a dance floor.You have EARNED the dislike and distrust of the rest Britain. Would YOU like YOU
Muslim community has been the victim of paki-bashing for the last 60 years by the British society in every walk of life. Now it is a victim of terrorism by the British Establishment. Thousands of Muslim youths are being searched in streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar with out any trial. Muslim schools are being percieved as training ground for terrorists. All Muslims are terrorists in the eyes of the media. Muslim children suffer from racism and bullying in state and church schools. As a 16 year old Black-British Muslim, I honestly don't know what to define myself as; I'm still working that out. To an extent I think that we as Muslims should adapt our way of life to Britain's - I mean not allowing people to perform nativity plays or say Christian prayers etc in schools is, frankly, a load of crap. But on the other hand we shouldn't be expected to either change our lifestyle or "go back to our country". It sounds overly idealistic, but in the end, does it really matter? Anjem Choudary is obviously a coward. after seeing his comments on GMTV it is clear that he is the sort of coward who puts all of we Muslims in danger whilst he cowers behind the laws of this country that has given us shelter. let it be known that not all of we Muslims are bigots and racists, i and many of my friends are thankful for the work of the brave British soldiers. 786: British soldiers can be Muslims too and have died fighting in Afganistan and in Iraq. I assume you live here, therefore "your Government" is our Government. War, just like murder does not distinguish between race, colour, creed, age or sex. The Taleban has murdered and continues to murder all in the name of Islam. Do you understand that? Obviously not, hence your ridiculously futile remarks. I pity you. 786 - There were no Western soldiers in Afghanistan before the Taliban government conspired in the attack on the twin towers. What did they expect? Meanwhile just how many innocent Afghans - from girls who dare to aspire to education to any Muslim who dares to disagree with their interpretation of Islam have these
As far as British solidiers go i have no sympathy for them they dig they're own graves by interferring in other countries; the taliban will one day be free from your grave deeds; where are the extremists in afghanistan only women and kids what so they're bombers as well now are they?! stop for a second and think about what your "british government" is doing - exploiting other countries and murdering thier own blood, they should have shame? How come your fathers and mothers come over here for a better protected life away from the tyrany of their governments and now you the sons and daugthers of the islam world are trying to undo what they gave you for freedom and the choice of having an education where under the taliban you wouldnt have that think before you act on protesting againist the army that protects that freedom. Because you might find yourself back in the land that doesnt want you to have such freedoms. You scum Muslims allowed to shout your filthy Muslim tirade at our soldiers only because the police hands are tied by government rules. You are to a man cowardly retards who will be eradicated come the revolution. I am getting sick and tired of you arabs showing dead and injured kids.If you left Israel alone, none of this would happen.You have chosen to elect a militant organisation who is so cowardly that they provoke a fight with Israel and then hide behind women and kids, it is no wonder your civilians are getting hurt.Your lot start the fight and send bombs and suicide bombers into Israel, but we never see the results of your cowardly actions, no dead and injured Jews.Time for honest media. I dont really understand the argument about finding ones identitiy unless one is looking from a refugee type viewpoint.
I am a muslim bangladeshi british from east london. I think we should all be able to live together in harmony and peace. People should respect each other's religions and faiths because Allah gave us free will which means that we can choose whether to be a muslim or not. To believe we can all live together in unity,
i am an US christin, i have no hate twards islam and i dont think anyone should be persicuted. if you all want to unite and return to palistine, go do it, but unite in peace, not with violent intent. oh and berny in london, it things like that that make the world hate us christians. shame on you. Am a Muslim from the Northern part of Nigeria , presently doing a white collar job in the Southwestern part of the country. I have been to Britain a couple of times, the most recent about two months back, and I must say am quite impressed by the way most muslims in Britain conduct themselves, and from what I have observed, most are trying to project Islam in a positive way. I love to live in England because of the freedom to live my religion as I like. I was born here and love every inch of England, every tree and every street.
Muslim British, definately not atheist The war against terror is not a war against Islam, nor a vindictive repression of muslims; it is what it says on the tin, a fight against those who would impose their will on others by means of terror. However misguided the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq may be, it would be a tragic mistake to see in them a deliberate anti-muslim stance on the part of the British government. Britain is one of the most liberal and accepting states on earth, I think we would all do well to remember that. To: Menna, Wexford, Ireland
hi im born british but i changed to muslim i dont under stand way peaple cant leave muslim peaple alone we are all the same Can someone tell me why these martyr seeking hamas hide in civillian areas? Just so they can claim a propaganda victory when civillians inevitably get hit? I thought they had a zeal for death and martydom so why hide with civillians? They have been shown for what they are. Just a criminal, fundamentalist organisation. Bernie in london, you are just as misguided as the other medieval fanatics on here. All the news is pro arab, yet you cause all the trouble in the middle east,have done since 1948.If you had not attacked Israel you would not be having the trouble you have now. Cant people off all religions just live happily together in britain? Cant we just focus on our similarities rather than our differences? I think it is time that all Muslims stood together enmasse and went to palestine to help their Muslim brothers and sisters, let me know how many tickets you require and i will forward the money.
F.shariff ali, London, Tottenham, United Kingdom.
I am a Practising Roman Catholic and my parents are French and Irish and I was born in Britain, I consider myself British. I have a question for British Born Muslims, for those of you who dont identify yourself as British why is that? and is there anything that can done to change why you dont? This is not meant to offend I am simply interested, where these seems to be a lack of british identification amongst many British born muslims. Thanks I am a muslim living happily in Britain, My parents are of Pakistani origin and I consider Britain my home and nobody can tell me otherwise. I have many friends who are of different religions, cultures etc. I wear a hijab proudly and have been lucky to have studied, worked and lived here all my life but APPARENTLY i'm still not intergrated enough! Its sad to read all these Hateful e-mails, lifes too short to hate lets all try to work on our similarities and not hate on our differences. F Sharif Ali - If I were to offer the opinion in most Muslim countries in the world that I looked forward to the day when the populations of those countries were converted to another religion I could look forward to imprisonment or even death. Which is why we will not be sharing your enthusiasm for a Muslim Britain any day soon. I am sorry you feel lonely but you show
A lot of us living in the United
I am a 29 year old british born and bred man of pakistani origin.
I am a muslim teenager living in london and to me it isn't exactly the best place for a muslim to be but what choice do i have? im here for my education. Also the way the media protrays islam these days just makes you feel as if your not welcome here.even in college i feel left out, but im not upset compared to other places like my home country Somalia i am happy 2be here.And alhamdulilah im happy and i truly hope that one day every one will be a muslim and exalting the one true name AMEEN. i am a muslim wife, yet I dont need to wear a hijaab to show my deep and true rooted islam, I bow my head to islam, my values and culture go hand in hand, for my son to follow as a true british muslim. I am truly thankful of my parents who have bestowed this upon me. As an Englishman I will no longer tolerate muslims or any other faith, telling me about things I do in my country that are offensive to you. You are offensive when a school cannot have a nativity play because of you, English people cannot wear a crucifix at work because of you.
Can muslims and Christians live peacefully together in the community.Would this be an example for other religions? My mum is a London born Irish girl and my dad is a Morrocan born Algerian.My geneology is a mess but I'm classified as British because I was born in Britain and I have a British Passport. If I had been born in France, I'd be calling myself French and waving a French passport.The fact of the matter is I, nor anyone else, had the choice of where they were born or brought up,so should it really be what defines you as a person? My mother was English/Irish and my father Indian. I was born in Britain. The question should not be how one would define themselves, it should be why do others find it necessary to define us? John, London: Your God is the same as my God. Yahweh, Lord, God, Allah all mean the same. Jews, Chritians and Muslims are believers of the book. 1500 years ago we devoted a whole chapter in the Quran to Mary and the Virgin birth, yet the Catholic Church only gave importance to Mary in 1965. My point? We believe the same yet different. Regardless of who we pray to, how we pray or in what language our prayers are answered. We have more in common than perhaps you would are wanting to believe.
Urslaan - Just remind me again - How many foreign troops were there oppressing the poor old Taliban in Afghanistan when they allowed and indeed encouraged the attack on the multinational inhabitants of the twin towers? Ah yes I remember precisely - NONE. How many training camps, how many bomb attacks on civilians worldwide were
Urslaan-thanks for your response. But picking at my spelling? As a Dsylexic, I'd say I'm doing better than most on here! (it's capital M for my name please-and where is Teessideel exactly?!) ;o) Urslaan - You could not be more wrong. I demonstrated against the war in Iraq before it started and while in London went to part of the Hutton debate in the House of Commons. I will NEVER forgive Tony Blair for his mendacity and folly. This is when I met Muslims for the first time whose extremist, mysoginistic, fascist ideologies far predated Iraq and who had been allowed to flourish in Britain by
Gunhilde, my sympathy is for those who are oppressed over nations who choose to oppress - obviously you feel that "my country; right or wrong" is a postive approach... I think it's dumb.
I have just being reading most of the e-mail. There ia a lot of hatred, confusion, misunderstanding etc. Let us NOT confuse religon, identity and to see if you are faithful to UK or any country you are citizen of. The word citizen means "member of state". You can have your religon and be faitful and true to a country. I cannot understand the attitude and hate some of you have for this country. I have represented England at Internationl level at Sports and am a muslim. Long live the Queen! Urslaan-you illustrate the reason most Britons (English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh)feel growing resentment towards british-born citizens-Pakistani identity in terms of race, culture etc, but British identity for...? All the trimmings perhaps? If Britons were to refuse to accept you as British because of your race, would you see this as racist? As for bloodied histories, please consider: Arabs started the slave trade, the Ottoman empire was around before the British empire, the caste system etc.. Urslaan. Home is where the heart is your heart is not here - fair enough. So what should the rest of us do about a self confessed security risk like you. Fortunately, though there are 1 million citizens of Pakistani origin all of whom you seem to imply share your views, there are 64 million of the rest of us. We can change the law and this loophole needs addressing. Incidently what was the Caliphate if not a shameful, colonial institution - but it was Muslim so I suppose that's alright then. Muhammad Sheraz-a little thought from you too, please before commenting-the UK has been in existence many thousands of years, minus the name-the earliest settlers date back some 9,000 years. A brief look at the anti-Rubina comments throughout these threads-mostly from fellow Muslims-suggests integration and adaptation to British culture has conciously not happened-Rubina is integrated, educated, thoughtful and a credit to Islam-unlike yourself. MUHAMMAD SHERAZ - you are the worst example of someone with an agenda who is selective in history - which brainwashers have been giving you your 'education'. You said...
Gunhilde - most likely, Pakistan
Urslaan - This may work for you but it isn't necessarily good for the rest of Britain. If we were to go to war with Pakistan where would your loyalties lie? It is illegal in some countries to hold dual nationality - it should be illegal here and throughout the rest of the EEC. People should be required to choose. If they retain foreign citizenship then their British nationality should be revoked along with rights of residence. It is in no countries interest to have semi-detached citizens. Muslim. British and Pakistani (Dual Nationality). England is home but Pakistan is the land of my forefathers and dear to my heart. My grandfather lived here for 40 years yet consciously never took nationality - that sense of identity is part of my inheritance. Summeya - I think most Britons who have any education at all are well aware of the the history of the opium wars. Do most of us feel guilty about it - No, for the simple reason that Britain was not a one person one vote democracy at the time. If the upper classes were giving people abroad a hard time I assure you they were giving the lower orders at home a considerably worse one and they still are - hence uncontrolled immigration and all the stresses that brings without any public mandate. Learning selective history where one gain knowledge of what titillates his self-image is always wrong.
The comments by Javed Sattar, Glasgow, United Kingdom-
i am white british, and I never used to be racist. infact I used to hate the BNP because they were racist! but now im 25 and I have experienced more in britain and I am now not ashamed to say I am a racist. I am a firefighter and we cannot put up our flag because it offends, an advertising banner with some female skin was taken down by the council because muslims felt offended. white britains feel forgoten and supressed in our own country. our way of life is changing. its called islamification. Im a British- Muslims, parents from pakitan...yes there are some downfalls of British society islamopobia may exist within some individuals or groups bt largely we are free to practice our religion, hold dawah events eetc...we r in better conditions than most muslims even those in 'supposedly' muslim countries.y r muslims fleeing from these countries n seeking refuge ere in Britain?Its Allah thru His mercy that He put us here... i;m a revert of jamaican parentage,born in the uk.support britain in major sporing events however have a keen intrest in carribean events.uk is home islam is my heart and soul,my true identity.my wife is of kenyan parentage born in uk and our 3 kids hopefully feel they are a huge part of modern britain which is diverse and accepting of all ?. What is it to be a British Muslim? I went thru this dilema as a teenager. here I was Asian, living in Scotland and called all sorts of names from the National Front. I'm Muslim, thats my faith and is personal, I regard myself as Scottish of Pakistani origin. If people can get past the religion then its simple. If your born in the UK your British. If your not and want to complain then why live here. We have freedom to live our faith, Im proud to be Scottish as much as you are Welsh or English. To Mohammed - I am glad you see yourself as British. The trouble is there is a philosophy which has been adopted by certain Muslim groups which insists Muslims should not see themselves as British and should live separate lives within Britain. When this was imposed in South Africa we called it apartheid and condemned it as racism which it surely is. This is causing suspicion and distrust of all Muslims which is what it's designed to do. It's about power and control of the many by the few. u know what yeah i dont know why people are saying im not british muslim. im a british muslim and the muslims that were born here consider themselves british muslims. its total crap on this thing. the others r probably just immigrants who arent even born here so why are they even on this. i went to an english school and college and that had friends from different cultures. they r not a threat to us. THIS IS FOR DAVE FROM BIRMINGHAM...WE AS MUSLMS HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT AS YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN THE UK..WE HAVE ADAPTED TO THE BRITISH CULTURE AS MUCH AS WE COULD AND WHEN YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY LIVE OUR WAY OF LIFE THATS WHERE YOUR WRONG BRITAIN HAS ONLY BEEN IN EXISTANCE FOR WHAT 5 TO 6 HUNDRED YEARS THE MUSLIMS WERE THE ONES WHO BOUGHT YOU OUT OF DARK AGES AND THATS WHAT IS TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS AND UNI'S THE QUEEN IS NOT BRITISH SHES INDO EUROPEAN SO LOOK AT HISTORY BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH im a british muslim. i was born here, attended english schools and all that. i feel offended if someone calls me a paki though, cos i've never been to pakistan. it annoys me how people think muslims are form pakistan not saudi arabia Zakiyya, Leicester: You are like a breath of fresh air! Oh and my brother is a Muslim chaplain at a local prison. Contrary to some of the remarks made about only the 'non-muslims' being guilty of crime is baseless and simply uncalled for. He works amongst muslim inmates, some serving time for rape, others for petty crimes, others for drug dealing - just like the hundreds of other inmates who are not Muslim. Take accountability for your actions, it isn't because of the country you live in or your faith.That's just shifting the blame! Oh and somebody please show me a 'true Islamic' state - is it Egypt where the men are forbidden from keeping a beard? Or Saudi Arabia where as much as I'd love to live just to be in close proximity to the beautiful Kaaba I can't because I'll never be allowed citizenship there as a non-arab. Or is it B'desh where the corruption amongst the so-called muslim leaders leaves a lot to be desired. Your faith is personal. Practise it in any corner of the world. The reward is ultimately the same. Many of these comments,frankly, surprise me. The comment 'British Muslim' is akin to 'halal pork'is ludicrous. Is one suggesting that to be British is Unislamic?? I was born in Britain, attended a Catholic primary school and an Islamic secondary. Islam didn't come to Britain through Asian Immigration, it existed well before that and harmoniously too. I'm proud to be a practising Muslim lawyer in Britain. Never had a hindrance practising Islam in Britain whilst living by the laws of the land. I think muslims in england very good
you lot make me really angry - who do you support? what do you call home? - i think you can all prepare for some changes soon because the silent majority...the supposedly silent middle england,
Khalisah - I suggest you read some of the back postings on this site and you will see that in many cases it is some of your fellow Muslims who often ascribe their particular cultural views to Islam. When Sidra, presumably brought up in an Islamic environment is confused about the linguistic definition of Islam it's a bit rich of you to expect non Muslims to understand it's complexities. Perhaps the exhortion to LEARN should be addressed closer to home? I converted to islam last year at the age of 15 and it's the best decision i made within my life.
Sidra, UK: You are a typical example of a person who gives my religion a bad name! You have absolutely no idea as to what you are talking about. Moreover, you seem to have confused belief with citizenship. To be British does not mean that you cannot be a Muslim too. Do you hold a passport? Is it British? I pity you; you sad, misdirected fool.
Sidra, please get educated or get off this site. Your syntax is atrocious and you are just showing the non- Muslims how thick most of us Muslims are. Sidra. If a Christian does a bad thing it does not make them a non Christian - It makes them a BAD one.
Gunhilde York, Islam means peace and submission to god, so your telling me that mental people are just like you then becuase they have the same thoughts as any other humans are you implying everyone has the same view that of the murdere? islam has very structered organised rules to keep peace, there is a surah in he quran called surah Kafirun i suggest you read it, and islam does not mix with culture especially that of british, what is the british culture in your eyes, getting drunk,Fornication? Actually Sidra Islam does not mean peace it means - Submission.
Can i just explain something, islam means peace and terrorism does not fit in the picture, ne1 who voluntaringly decides to blow themselves up and others, cannot be a muslim, becuase suicide for 1 is forbidden in islam and muslims beleive only Allah s.w.t has the right to create and take life, i would also like to request Rubina to watch her mouth even though you may be a muslim, i don't lyk you badmouthing other muslim you should feel ashamed of yourself. As a health worker in St James's Hospital in Leeds i was disgusted to find that you Muslims will gladly accept organ donations to save your lives, but you refuse to donate to save anyone elses life. You should all be ashamed of your heinous beliefs, it is no wonder that Muslims are hated by the rest of the world! Steve, London, UK: Welcome to the twilight zone! Many Muslims speak up against the foolish minority of Muslims that give people like me bad press. It is unfortunate though that our voice is not the voice that is heard. Sensationalism sells and always will. I fail to understand all those Muslims that claim they are true believers of Islam,they fail to speak up against the stupid minority of Muslims who want to change so many things in this country. The UK has received vast numbers of Immigrants over the past 60 years,most of which still have their own beliefs and cultures. For example, Hindu's & Sikhs have never tried to force their opinions and beliefs onto the rest of us. Muslims should be quite, intergrate or go and live in a Muslim country! I consider myself English, inview I was born in London and brought up there, and of English parents.
The actions of a significant minority of muslims, and the silence of the majority, are the reasons why they are not welcome in Europe. Karim, get real - there is no ideal world, only a world that is damaged by interolance - that goes both ways! Muslims are intelerant of other beliefs under the mistaken concept that their answer is the only one. It isn't. And I am not prepared to let a Muslim fool dictate how I live my life. Your region is about peace etc! ALL religions claim this - all fail!! ive read on here that "moderate muslims" are against radical muslims preaching hate against the west yet reading some of the comments on here i don't think as many muslims are against it as we are being led to believe. Why when these nutters are standing in london parks preaching how evil this country and west is, why have i not seen a sigle muslim say something to disagree. ive seen this twice and the only people who said anything were white brits outraged, why not moderate muslims speaking up? Karim - Britain has always seesawed between licentiousness and social repression - from the cavaliers to the puritans, the Georgian rakes to the Victorians. It's this constant evolution back and forward that makes it the creative place it is. I understand that some people would prefer to live in a more ordered manner but most of us who choose to live here don't. There is no perfect state. Even Iran has it's problems. Drug abuse is rife in Tehran. Utopia is just that-an idealised dream. Oh please people! Some of us really do need to get real. There is no such thing a true Islamic state. Most so called Muslim countries aspire to be like us in the West and by doing so the rich keep getting richer and the poor- well who really cares? The grass is always greener on the other side; it's only when you get there you realise that utopia is not what you thought it would be. Stop and think- it's not a 'them and us' situation. It is if you let it be. Frank - piety and good character are attributes we should all seek, and Allah is the best judge.
Zayna - so there are two choices in this country - either drunk and swearing etc or a Muslim? This is very insulting to the vast majority of all the rest of us. I have lots of Hindu friends for instance that don't drink but don't make a big fuss about it. I personnaly have avery good relationship with God - I try everyday to be a good and kind person and not judge others as only God has that right. You however, being a muslim have this right too? Maybe all Muslims are terrorists? Is that fair? I am a british born person of Pakistani origin.I believe an individual identifies more with this country when you have a job or business in the uk, when you have good disposible income allowing to have increasing purchasing power, the ability to travel, one feels happier you are likely to integate and take part in local democracy and local politics.
Habibah - What about the onslaught by Muslims against the rest of us? Many Muslims keep on telling us that the Ummah is anti the nation state (see Karims' letter)and then you can't understand why we increasingly see you as alien - It's because you keep on telling us you are - a quite reasonable response in the circumstances. Furthermore if living in Britain is so hard for Muslims these days we should be looking at wholesale immigration from the U.K. to Muslim countries. We aren't - why not? I have been muslim for 2 and half years now and once my sister said to me I don't look english anymore because I wore hijab and I thought well maybe I don't want to look British. I don't want to look like I drink alchohol and show my nearly naked body to strangers in the street and shout and swear at my mum and dad. I am British, yes but I am also muslim and I hate that muslims don't get out more often because of the people out on the street they should get and be proud! I certainly Am!! : ) I was not born a Muslim. I accepted Islam in 1977 and since then I have witnessed many events from the Iranian revolution to the current events of today. What would define my identity in Britain as a British Muslim would be to feel a sense of belonging, worthiness and acceptance. But the onslaught against Islam and Muslims makes me feel like an outsider in my own country even though I was born here. Home for me should be here but I am uncomfortable and happier when I am in a Muslim environme. Identity is what believes, presents and behaves as a person within his family, his community, his work and himself. it includes his speech, dress code and values to his family and the country. Is he a law-abiding citizen, or a person on personal crusade to achieve his identity. The Ummah extends across nationality, race, borders, colour, ethnicity and social group. Muslims live by the same faith, sunnat and shariat. Therefore, this precludes nationalism.
Shabana wrote "i see myself muslim first then british. full stop."
its you people who give asians a bad name,i myself am indian and am sickened by the violence muslims bring and i agree with neiol taylor I NEED TO KNOW WHY MUSLIM CEREBRETING EITHER EID IN DIFFERENT DAYS WHILE GEOGRAPHICALLY NOT ACCEPTABLE IN MY MIND i see myself muslim first then british. full stop. Im English
Lets take a step back: First, we all need to decide what it means to be 1. British and 2.English or if they are now the same thing. Times have changes, countries have moved on and so have peoples moral and ethical judgement systems. Muslims can practice their religion in any country under (almost) any government. It's not black and white - just lots of shades of grey.
i am English first, if for whole country then I am British, and I follow islam, as my way of life and spiritual needs. I do not consider, Moslim in the same light as being English or Arab or Welsh. Saddened Citizen: What??? You had to ask permission from a Muslim to read the Quran??? I can't get over that! What type of Muslims do you know? The Quran is for all of mankind- not just Muslims. You really couldn't make it up- it just gets worse and worse. ... I understand Islam far better than I ever did, and am satisfied that the image portraid in the media is incorrect.
...more understanding about a faith, which would undoubtedly remove fear and suspicion that is so prevelant in the western society.
I appreciate your comments, Ali, and accept that this is a noble cause, however I believe that people should have the choice, and it is wrong to expect everyone to want to follow the same path without understanding it.
Why is the muslim community within the UK not trying to bring an awareness of Islam to the none islamic people in the UK. Islam in the UK is seperating itself from the nation which creates a hatred. Embrace your religion and if it is as you claim so wonderful share it with others. Allow the people to make there own minds up. All we see are Muslims complain and make demands, we also see the extream side from the media. Show us the real Islam, maybe then we can judge ourselves better i feel Islam is misunderstood by many of the British as the knowledge they tend to go by is media and extremists which most muslims do not condone. the media is biast and has no significance to true Islam.
Muslim identity is that they are Muslim first,Muslim last as we belive in Allah swt and Muhammad saw as the final Prophert.Muhammad saw came with Islam to unite different people together as Muslim,not as English,Indian,Jordanian,Nigerian,Pakistani or anything else.
I am saddened by many of the comments on this page - I have many friends who are muslim but do not see them as muslim or british, i see them as friends who are individuals.
To Neiol Taylor - if you fought with the Britsh Armed Forces you fought to promote democracy around the world and stop hatred and tyranny from killing innocent people... be careful your comments do not contradict exactly what you fought for. Secondly, the majority of Muslims currently in the country (or their parents) arrived to work in the cotton and textile factories of the North during the 1950s to 1970s - without them the same growth wouldn't have been possible. i see amir khan is to fight another no-hoper stand in, who has to put on weight to qualify. another example of a khans pathetic career. cant wait till he fights a good south americam and gets twatted. Just as the ummah needs zakat, Britain needs a united community - there are core values and principles both share you know! the question is not are you British and Muslim, the question is as a citizen are you willing to work together to rid this society of its ills. As many muslims have written negatively in this forum, then i ask - are you willing to live in country heading westernization or not, if not then the place to reside is in a country built upon shariah law. Some of these comments have deeply disturbed me, from both views! I agree and understand being Muslim is an identity over all other forms of identity, however living within a British society can aid and benefit ones life as being Muslim. A people who choose to makes laws of their own is in direct opposition to Allah yet do not underestimate the possibility of a British social infrastructure impacting upon your own Muslim life. We choose to see what we want to see. belfast 1975 andersontown 3 children killed as a result of a terrorist act, within days 10,000s of people from both side of the community took to the streets to protest about the IRA/UDA and show to the world that the people of Northern Ireland did not support terriost,the peace movement was born It would be nice if the Muslim community of UK did something similar,it would show the rest of the UK that the Muslin community do not support acts of terror by members of their community,=== PEACE...
Aisha Galal, I am pleased that you find the Eygyptions so welcoming and I hope that your wish to go back there comes soon. however, whilst you are there please spare a thought of those non-muslim Eygptions the Coptic Christians and how they are being attacked in their own lands by some of those lovable warm muslim neighbours. I know we can all be blind to the world sometimes. Paladin - The most universally held British value irrespective of colour, creed or sex, among the vast majority of the population is a belief in democracy. How have you managed to live here and miss that? Add to this a bizzare universal obbsession about the weather in those over twenty five and a refusal to dress appropriately for it in those under twenty five (perhaps we should make this a citizenship test)? The need to apologise when someone else bumps into you. CONT What are British values? According to a prophetic saying everyone is born on the fitra or nature of islam, some are fortunate to recognise this, others are still searching for it.We can only become a true British Muslim when we live by the example of the teacher of mankind prophet Muhammed (S) i.e respecting the law of the country,respecting the rights of our parents, children, neighbours etc etc To Neil Taylor in Nottingham, i'm sorry you feel this way about muslims. You fought for your country, well so did thousands of muslims - in both world wars. At least you came home alive. Jabron Hashmi didnt - he was a British muslim killed in Afghanistan. You came home to type hatred and spew bile against us. He died over there fighting for Britain. I have some advice for you, stop feeling threatened and stop living with hatred, you'll be alot happier. I hope you come to your senses. Peace. shabbir bax. I couldn't agree more with your views. Like you, i and several thousand ( and growing in number ) British Christians who are ex forces, are prepared to fight against the oppression of our religion and traditional way of life. Bring it on . The day people can wake up and not have to scream 'Im British Muslim!!' is the day that their two halves happily coincide.
I take a great pride in recognising myself as a British Muslim. Primarily due to freedom of my religious beleifs and to be able to confirm practically. I would equally be a strong british Muslim to fight against opression of any kind and that would also include intellectual as well as emotional. One would be a coward not to and would be considered unbritish as the country stands for integral democracy and not that of selective democracy. As a white ENGLISHMAN im sick and tired of having to bow down to the demands of you people, i have fought for my country and hate what it has now become because of you people, its a haven for any trash from all over the world to flood into and take over we will soon be fighting once again for England but this time it will be on our soil, we dont want you here, we dont need you and most of us will never accept you as british, if you want to be muslim go home and do it, and not in my country... I was born in this country. My race is classed as white. Islam is my religion. I don't have an issue with other religions, because inter-faith conflict is not Islamic. Whilst I can dream of a Medinan utopia where we all live according to Shariat, I understand and accept that this is unlikely at best, and certainly not appropriate for the UK, where the majority are not Muslims, and which has a mainly Christian heritage. I believe Muslims should leave politics and war to politicians. i am vary proud of bing a british muslim before i came to britain i could not speak good english but now british people have helped me and i am very thankfull I grew up in a Jewish area & had Hindu, Muslim and Christian friends. Though there were racist taunts, I can't think anything more Islamic than the beauty of accepting people from different backgrounds. I saw the difference when I moved to Muslim countries which have a knack of focussing on trivial issues rather than the progressive ones, like fighting crime, corruption and racial unity, so I came back here. I just hope this Islamaphobia is just another passing phase. I believe sites like these are a step in the right direction. Encouraging people with different beliefs to commuincate with each other. If we are going to live in a society, country or home with people, surely we need to have respect and consideration for each other. We must live in this world together, so we must try and get along. We may not all share the same beliefs, why should we. To try and impose one way is a failure to accept the 'other' which is always present& offers possibility. I am sick of moaning muslims living in Britain. Britain's identity is being changed because muslims think they are superior to all other faiths. Islam's main objective is to convert everyone to be a muslim. If they don't think they are superior why do they have to do this, all religions should be tolerated yet Islam is seen as the one true religion. If muslims aren't happy where they live they should go and live in a predominently muslim country and not force their beliefs on other countries. Rubina, if only the loud voice of Islam that we hear was more like your own. Regrettably it's not - whether on these threads or generally.
It's unfortunate that 'we' and I use this word loosely, are constantly feeling victimised when there is no need. 'We' bleat about injustices posed upon 'Us' by the West, but 'We' in general cause more harm than good. I guess it's ok for a Muslim to kill another Muslim, but all hell breaketh loose if a non-Muslim does. It does not bode well. Most Muslims have no idea about Islam- they think they do- but in actual fact they do not; and unfortunately it's these people who have the media ears. You might like to know Rubina
Manzoor - If Dr Bari is right and living in Britian for Muslims is now is like living in Nazi Germany was for Jews in the past then surely we should now be looking at mass immigration from Britain of the muslim population to somewhere less repressive. Would you or Dr Bari like to tell us how many thousands of persecuted British muslim families have now fled these shores? How many closed mosques and businesses are we looking at here? Your whiny, pseudo victim culture is risible - Grow Up. Rubina, Dr Bari's much publicised interview marked as lead story - 'misplaced pride and anti-Muslim prejudice' hijacked by Telegraph interviewer - Alice Thomson, senior journalist, a trustee of the right-wing neoconservative think tank policy exchange. Talk about social ills or challenge colonial foreign policy you’re in for justifying terrorism.Modern day McCarthyism in Britain is manifest by the fact that you can be labelled a ‘terrorist' for possessing a book, or a glorifying ‘extremist'. Steve Woods, Swindon: I totally agree with your comment re. the MCB- absolutely outrageous! Representatives such as him need to be more careful when they speak as they cause more harm than good, particularly as they are supposed to be talking on behalf of all Muslims; certainly not me nor mine. Being non-religious, I'm constantly baffled by the need of many people to believe in myth, prophecy, gods & icons. I have no interest whatsoever in Muslim, Catholic or any other faith that detracts from allowing others to live their lives as they would wish. I suspect there are many 'believers' who have no interest in MY lifestyle. So be it, I don't have a problem with that.
I'm British but lived in Egypt for several years. I'm now Muslim and recently returned to the UK. This country has become so bad so much discrimination and hate towards everything. I'm not proud to be British wish I could go back to Egypt to live in a warm and friendly society. Manzoor - the conventional rule of personal behavior for the muslim janjaweed militias in Darfur involve systemic rape, murder and torture. Where in the muslim world are the inmans and commentators calling these members of the Uhmma to account? Where is it observed that the people of Darfur have the right to their own lands? Are these people suffering any less than the people of Palestine yet you are all strangely silent on their rights and the wrongs done to them by the militias. Why? Muslims hold on to the conventional rules of personal behaviour. This implant in the heart of a nation-state of Palestine where Muslims,Christains and Jews lived together for centuries was a sanguine enemity.On November 2,1917 BBD favour enforced eviction of Palestinians from their land to facilitate Britain/USA for their secure route of oil supply.Palestinians are strangled with Israeli sanctions while Arab/Muslim rulers watch on.252,000 people in Gaza under siege reliant on UN food handouts. Muslims hold on to the conventional rules of personal behaviour. This implant in the heart of a nation-state of Palestine where Muslims,Christains and Jews lived together for centuries was a sanguine enemity.On November 2,1917 BBD favour enforced eviction of Palestinians from their land to facilitate Britain/USA for their secure route of oil supply.Palestinians are strangled with Israeli sanctions while Arab/Muslim rulers watch on.252,000 people in Gaza under siege reliant on UN food handouts. Manzoor - Would this be Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman who died in 1908 and was writing before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire by any chance? God knows what he would have made of the Muslim world today. Even within the boundries of your own lands you fight among yourselves Sunni verses Shia, tribal leaders who see Osama Bin Laden as foreign and fight accordingly. It was only a few months ago that Palestinians were shooting at each other. Not Skaro - Cloud Cuckoo Land with menaces I think. gunhilde,Sir Bannerman PM wrote:“There arepeople whocontrole spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources.They dominatethe intersections oftheworld routes.Theirlands werethe cradles ofhuman civilizationsand religions.These peoplehave one faith,onelanguage,onehistoryand thesame aspirations.No natural barrierscan isolate thesepeople fromoneanother ifthisnation weretobe unified intoonestate;it wouldthentakethefateoftheworldintoitshandsandwouldseperateEuropefromtherestoftheworld." Gunhilde, UK: I take umbrage to you calling Muslims, Daleks- however I can't stop laughing as the sound of them crying "exterminate exterminate exterminate" rings in my ears. Is there a Doctor in the house??? Mansoor-Your political philosophy could just as easily have been expressed by Hitler, Stalin or Chairman Mao. Totalitarianism whether in the name of the people, the state or religion is power for the few at the expense of everybody else - it is the ultimate theft. As for "individuals have no option" in other words resistance is useless now we know the awful truth - the Daleks are Muslim! Are your plans for total and complete world domination coming from Mecca or Skaro? The public needs to know! Squaddie, immigrants come from many different countries. If you were well read you would understand that we have also had a big surge of Polish immigrants who are non-Muslims. Get your facts right and stop using that reason as a smoke screen for your racist, 'get out of here' claim. Start educating yourself, its not hard. This Balfour Declaration day, the implant Israel, a pariah state the usurper of the land of Palestine holds on to facilitate Britain and USA a planned strategy of controlling the route of oil supply, their lifeline. Palestinians are being strangled with economic sanctions where it hearts most with callous cruelty, while the Muslim rulers watch on. Today, people in Gaza under siege are completely reliant on food handouts from the UN World Food Programme. Dreadful shame on libral democracy. Liberal democracy attaches individual freedom/rights and all values to humans. Individualism is not a recognizable feature of Islam; instead the collective will of the Muslims is consistently emphasized. Human duties and rights have been vigorously defined to be organized and legally enforced by the Khilafah, Islamic state. Individuals have no option but to submit to the will of Allah alone.
Squaddie, UK: I understand your sentiments, however surely you must be aware that not all Muslims are immigrants nor are all immigrants Muslims. Certainly our Government has its priorities all wrong, particularly as we are fighting an unjust cause which has just escalated out of control. Most of us in this country are immigrants regardless of our colour and faith. It is not fair to make sweeping statements. As I said before I understand your sentiments and empathise with you. Immigrants get priority housing, mobile phones monetary handouts to buy food, this is a well established fact. British soldiers injured in the line of duty get shunned by their own government. Why do you immigrants seem surprised that there is a growing movement of Antimuslimism in this country. Get out now. Hey, Steve. Let me assure you that majority of British Muslims are not on the dole. Many are hard working citizens who have had to fight prejudice. I worked 3 jobs during university to fund my education. I do not feel that white people are all interrogating me. But you need to change your ignorant views. It is racist views such as yours that make Caucasian people feel bad. I have a perfect mix of white and Asian friends and white friends do not wish to be tarred with your beliefs. What a fuelled page! When my students ask me, 'Where are you from Miss?'. I say, 'here.'
Eid Mubarek!
So the writer has run away - again! The bizarre thing is that before reading his postings if you had asked me if I thought Iraqis should be allowed to settle here because of the war I would have said - yes. Now I would oppose it right down the line. The last thing we need is to import any more people who dislike and resent us and have a huge chip on their shoulders like him. In the end it's the people who stay who will rebuild Iraq. They have my respect and good wishes. there goes writer with the race card again. & yet another last word.
2 million Iraqis have fled the violence, and many more are waiting to leave- you'd have to be a complete moron to 'go back to iraq' in this situation. Secondly, how can you go 'back' somewhere you've never been in the first place? That just doesn't make sense. Gunhilde, comparing the systematic oppression of the palestinian people to a bunch of anglo saxons offended by the sight of a black man is an argument that I'm not even going to begin to dignify with a response. I asked not to be addressed on this forum because the discussions were becoming too stupid, and I had to repeat myself at least four times as my points were being ignored by people regurgitating the same inane arguments (I'm particular with how I spend my time). I will make my last comment, and address me how much you will, I wont be coming here again. I was merely pointing out why Iraqis weren't going back to Iraq, not taking the moral high ground... Gunhilde, I suspect you'll be waiting a long time for that response - & if it comes it will be as impractical, ill-considered, deluded & chippy as ever.
I am still waiting Writer for a reply to my question - If no-one has the right to a country does this mean the Palestinians have no right to self-determination?
writer, ignorance can be inexcusable. Why not research british culture instead of posting rude drivel about the locals & kidding yourself you have the moral high ground!
'Iraq, despite being once the Middle East’s most developed country - now has benchmarks and indicators normally associated with developing countries: with only 32% of Iraqis having access to safe drinking water, four million Iraqis now food-insecure, a state health and sewage system in collapse and only 19% of Iraqis with access to functional sanitation.' Sometimes ignorance is inexcusable. I said already that I have resigned from dicussions here. Please don't address any comments to me again. 'Writer, well Saddam's gone so I suppose their is nothing stopping you and your family from returning' For the love of humanity, don't post such ignorant comments again. If you're not bothered to read/watch the news, then at least look at the news on the very site you're visiting right now- I refer you to the article on Iraq in the international news section... Ramadan Kareem to you all. Let's hope and pray that we can all regardless of faith, colour or creed live and let live in peace and harmony. Writer, well Saddam's gone so I suppose their is nothing stopping you and your family from returning.
Dear Rubina, I was, misguidedly, expecting an intelligent response from one who holds herself in such great esteem, but once again inane babblings from a person who perports to represent the Muslim view. Comments not unlike the filth you have aired before, i.e to Alison of Leeds. You should present your arguments with structured reasoning, not filthy language or inane comments. Once again Rubina 'Think' before posting your thoughts. Writer - Australia is tightening it's immigration policies even as it encourages an increase in the home grown birthrate. This enormous country may want more citizens but it doesn't appear to want to import them. The fact that there has been only one successful terrorist attack has'nt been for want of trying. You appear to respect every culture in the country but the one that gave you refuge. Ungracious and resentful you are a poster boy for immigration control. my parents are of Iraqi origin and came here in the 80s to flee Saddam’s persecution. I have grown up here amongst a multitude of cultures- my parents’ culture and the millions of cultures that make up multicultural Britain- and I’m all the more enriched for having had this experience. I am simply a human being living in the cold climes of a land they call Britain. Peace. currently the birth rate is higher than the immigration rate…if we have too many people in Britain such that the ‘infrastructure’ is being ‘strained’, then stopping immigration wont help a bit. If we really have too many people in Britain we’d have to decrease the birth rate before we do anything! I hereby resign from this discussion as all I’m doing is literally repeating myself. I said all I had to say ages ago. As for my response to the Muslim News’s question about my identity: How is one terrorist attack carried out by home grown terrorists a reason to strangle immigration that allows refugees a safe haven? Those terrorists were British nationals, or do they not count as proper Brits because they don’t trace their ancestry back to the iron age? Since when was ancestry a pre-requisite for living somewhere? Should we have turned back the millions of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany because they had no ancestry here? Now,I will say this for the millionth time: in Australia they’re already actually paying women money to encourage them to have a third child. In such an advanced economy where food and shelter are guaranteed, the economy has to continually grow in order to vie with others. At the current birth rate, the economy is looking not only to not grow, but to shrink.
New immigration policies have denied refugees with legal documents entry on the basis that if they were real refugees they wouldn’t have been able to obtain legal documents. However, if they come on fake documents they are turned away on the basis that the documents are illegal.
I’m calling you ignorant because I have to correct you with factual information which is not my job, as these facts are avalaible for you to find yourself…but anyway, Britain already has an extremely tight immigration policy and has turned back millions of refugees back to the countries where they were tortured to be tortured even more (countries with which Britain has economic ties). In 2002 during the build up the Iraq war, Britain sent home 14,300 Iraqi refugees. Writer - If no one has any right to an country does this mean the Palestinians have no right to self determination? If people can settle where they like regardless of the effect on the existing population does this mean the Zionist philosophy is correct? I would really like to read your opinion on this since at this moment I can't make up my mind if your hopelessly naive or deliberately disingenuous. Writer cont - As for all these invaders - The Viking great army which took the North of England was 6,000 tops. William the Conqueror brought around 10,000 troops to England. Mass immigration is a relatively new thing. I want a controlled immigration policy. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them ignorant. National security is an issue - Some of our fellow citizens have already paid a high price for our niavety and disregard for it. Or don't they count? Writer - I offer you no excuses there is no excuses to be made. We are the fifth largest economy in the world and in no imminent danger of collapse. When you look at population increases you have to look at the the long term effects as regards strains on infrastructure, housing population density ect. You also have to take into account that a country is not just an economic unit but also a social one. Furthermore most people in Britain even now can be traced to their iron age ancestors cont Abu - Rubina is one of the most thoughtful posters we have on this site. Even when I don't agree with her I see where she's coming from. She comes across as a thinking, educated woman. You, on the other hand, appear to be an unpleasant, arrogant man. I can't help feeling that if she were a man you would not be accusing her of arrogance and self importance. Isn't she subservient enough for you? You are basically telling her to shut up. I hope she doesn't! So much for toleration. how many times do I have to spell it out to you that Britain is underpopulated and needs more people if the economy is not to collapse? Whether those people come from outside or inside, they need to be there. Your fictitious land problem is a population problem not an immigration problem- the immigration rate is nothing compated to the birth rate (and even that is economically too low). Just for the record, I like Britain, and I don't hate anyone, I only hate people's ignorance. first of all you think there is a sizable 'threat' from refugees and immigrants who are crossing seas and continents and risking their lives in the process just to come and kill you, like they have nothing better to do (most of these refugees are fleeing war and persecution). Second of all, you site a 'land problem' as another excuse. If there was a serious land problem, Brown would have already introduced a one child policy to stop our population getting any bigger... gunhilde, everyone started off as an immigrant, that's right we all originate from nomadic tribes which decided to settle somewhere over time, and alot of us come from conquering tribes that over-threw the already settled population,(if you are an anglo saxon, then you are one of these). No one belongs by rights to a certain land- barring people from a certain place, not allowing any new 'tribes' to settle is almost fascist. And your excuses are fundamentally flawed... Abu, Sheffield: Furthermore, as a Muslim I do not condone what other Muslims purport to do in my name. I hope very much you are not suggesting that I be tolerant of these people. If you are then you are the ignorant one. Islam is a tolerant religion, but that does not mean that as a Muslim I need to agree with people who kill in my name, who oppress in my name, impose their cultural ideologies in my name, etc. Moreover, if that makes me intolerant and ignorant, I'd rather be that! Abu, Sheffield: The same applies to you. Read read and then read again. Dear Rubina, you seem to be a very ignorant individual with an over exagerated sense of self importance. I do not wish to be represented by the likes of you who obviously has an axe to grind with all who do not agree with you. We muslims are amongst the most tolerable peoples on earth and your inane babblings do nothing to help others to understand the islamic fundamental belief in toleration. You must learn to think before you post your remarks. Hey Mike! Haven't read a comment of yours' for eons. Same old, same old. What a shame you haven't changed your bollocksy BNP fuelled tripe views. Still, I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. No wonder despite being leaders in the world, our country still lags behind in many areas; sometimes even behind 3rd world ones. Writer: Furthermore, before you start to jump up and down, the same sentiment applies to those who are of this land who sit on their backsides and choose not to work, because the benefit system is financially better for them. Regardless, our benefit system needs a massive overhaul as does our education system. We also need to stop pandering to the PC types who have nothing better to do than winge and moan about things that have no real consequence. Writer: I quite agree with Gunhilde regarding his comments about pensions. I have paid into the system and of course will continue to pay until I retire. However, when I become of pensionable age, there will not be enough money in the 'pot' to pay me. Is that fair? No, it's not! I'm supporting like many other tax payers, perhaps yourself too, people who reap the benefits of our support system. If we were to go to their countries of birth, we would not be extended the same courtesies. Writer - I don't care if the people coming in are white, black or purple with blue spots as an island we have a limited land mass. We currently have a short term problem with pensions but if we import more people to pay for it in the next generation they become part of the problem and so on. No country should expand its population beyond its capacity to feed itself in a national emergency. At the moment we could make provisions to do this if we had to.
Writer - I believe "indigenous people" usually refers,in any country in the world, to the population of a country who over several generations have shared memories and experiences and have become a sort of Uhma based on nationhood. Such people do not need to explain to each other what their culture is. They just know. In a democracy the question is - Is our immigration policy in the interests of the majority of our citizens or is it producing and giving entry to people who hate us like you. Indigenous peoples of Britain definitely does not include Muslims of any colour - I hope that answers your question! say, if the 'indigenous' (whoever the hell they are meant to be: saxons, celts, normans, vikings, or do you just prefer 'white'?) were to start reproducing more, would you still have a problem with too many people? Please correct me on my definition of indigenous, as I really don't know who you mean by that term. bigotry? what part of 'I envision a world where everyone peacefully coexists' did you not see? What is 'Britishness' pray tell? Because I really am dying to know, as are many others who are castigated for not embracing it. The fact that you don't like 'too many people' seems like a personal problem to me, you should campaign for family planning laws. It doesn't matter who you ask- ask any economist then, whether this country needs more people if the economy is not to collapse. Writer "the concept of a British culture is flawed".... Really? That's not you being a bigoted cultural imperialist then?
Writer, I'm quite sure that many people have problems with hoardes of EEuro's comong in, but if they don't, why do you think that is ?
..he will tell you we need the opposite in order for our economy not to collapse in a few decades due to an aging population and lack of young workers. No one seems to have a problem with the hoardes of Poles and Eastern Europeans coming in. Why is that? Ecologically speaking, we need to control the world population, not immigration. If indeed there are too many people in the world, it doesn't matter where they live, they are still depleting resources and causing global warming. As if you have to eschew the principles of democracy and free speech to be integrated. I'm not denigrating anyone's culture, I'm not the one suggesting Muslims have to drop their culture and beliefs in order to fit- I envision a world where many different cultures peacefully coexist (like the quran does- 'We created you into nations and tribes so you may get to know each other, not that you may despise each other'. And ask Gordon Brown whether we need to control our population... I was merely demonstrating that the concept of a British culture is flawed. The British Isles have at least four distinct cultures. I picked some random aspects of life in Britain to show that no one really knows what 'britishness' is. David Blunkett's citizenship test requires people to imbibe a history of the British empire in a romantic light- that just shows what they really mean by 'Britishness'. The sun newspaper calls Muslims who are anti-war 'unintegrated'. Confused: Are you sure your signed name isn't 'Tosser'? Russ, hit a sore point mr Rubina? Confused & speaking for the masses, that was a quick reply - are you on the staff too ? Writer, who said there's problem with workers having rights? That's in your imagination mate. There is a problem with increasing the population though.
Rubina. Congratulations you have a friend, that's one, but you still are'nt fooling the masses. You have been sussed get over it. we have no problem importing labour to help our economy, but as soon as those labourers demand rights, we have a social problem with immigration- we want their skills, not them!
Well said Rubina, it makes no difference at all - but 'copping an eyeful, as most men do, is quite natural & not necessarily "letching & Perving" - which is a little sexist & implies, as Gunhilde says, low regard.
Confused: Please pay attention to Russ' comment regarding my quick replies; it's true. Thanks Russ!. Furthermore you might be a 'stupid' Muslim, but I am not!
Manzoor-ul Haq, there certainly are(albeit often culturally based) contradictions between Islam & "western secularism". The cartoon protests were a classic example.
Writer - people in the West communicate in part by reading each others expressions it is part of our culture, (that is the culture you don't recognise we have) - this is impossible in a niquab. To malign the vast majority of decent men by refering to their gaze as "oppressive" - which implys they mean harm is hugely offensive, sexist and patronising. As a woman I would hope that if I did find myself faced with an "oppressive" gaze I'd have enough spine and wit to deal with it head on. Confused ? Don't be - sometimes you can post here & it goes straight on, other times it takes a week plus. Often it doesn't go on at all.
Rubina, you still haven't explained how you can reply to a posting on the same day that it was posted? Do you think that all of us as Muslims are stupid? What exactly are those values, identity, values, vision? Those once existed in this society, based upon Christian heritage are eroded now. Or those values which promote individualism, selfishness or unrestricted freedom. West commentators cite that unless Muslims fully accept Western values, they will pose a constant threat to their secular way of life. Some go further - there is no contradiction between Islam and Western secularism. They are torn in two loyalties Islam and Western secularism. In muslim countries you can wear anything you like as long as it is modest. You are confusing culture with morality here. Britain doesn't even have one cultural dress, and the hijab hardly contravenes public indecency laws. Why can't we just be satisfied with the simple fact that someone doesn't want their face to be on view? And who said anything about rape? Hijab also protects against the male gaze, the oppresiveness of which should never be undermined. Writer on the subject of dress - if I went to a Saudi Arabia or Iran I would expect to dress according to the cultural norms of these countries. Are these countries racist? I have no problems with the hijab but then no one is forcing me to wear it. Can you say this is always the case? As for the Niquab what this says is that all the men around these women are regarded as potential rapists. Since these men are our brothers, fathers ,husbands and sons I make no apologies for finding this rude. Britain is not willing to give out free higher education for its 'indigenous' unemployed. Britain is actually under populated by economic standards. We have an ageing population and low birth rate, the economy needs immigrants for stability let alone growth. So why let underdeveloped countries like india fester under the burden of overpopulation while Britain is suffering from underpopulation? Why control immigration? It seems the answer may be alot more sinister than we like to think. Confused: You shouldn't really make any assumptions without have some basis to build upon. I do not work for the Muslim News. Will you now say the same of Russ?
it really frightens me that people have such a problem with someone's dress. Even if the hijab was cultural, so what? what right does anyone have to impose one cultural dress over another? When people call for the banning of veils, hijabs and whatnots, it really smacks of cultural imperialism (a subtle form of racism)- and that's scary coming from even the more 'educated' sectors of society. Aziz, there are many instances in history that can be wheeled out to play a blame game, as you did in your original posting. I will spare you suggestions on where to look to get a broader outlook, but will refer you to the last line of your original posting & ask you to look to yourself. Russ N, be rational, I,m not denied there are Muslim who killed the Muslim.,but look back the history and the reality.David Owen, former British Foreign Secretary used to introduced plan to destroyed the sovereingty of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the world map with the help of Serbia & Croatia and supported by the US.Did U know that? I suggest u pls visit Islamic Council of Europe in Belgrave Sq & meet Islamic Relief or Muslim Aid to know more what,s the Muslim do for the Muslim & the rest. How does Rubina reply to Gunhilde and russ's postings on the same day? Obviously Rubina works for the Muslim News, and is not an independant member of the public. Gunhilde, couldn't have put it better myself! Rubina - We do not need more immigration to fill the temporary skills gap. We need short term foreign workers here under contract. This should not mean right of residence. It works for Saudi Arabia. I don't see them giving out passports and citizenship wholesale to expat workers and neither should we. Quite apart from the current political tensions we are too intensely populated as it is. If we are not to end up concreting over the entire country we need less people not more. Russ, agree with your point regarding immigration. However, we do need it to some degree. We are not producing enough of our own home grown educated professionals. Education is an area in which we lack greatly. Until this is put right we are in a catch-22 situation. Rubina, going back to your point about needing immigration, I think that it is a socio-environmental issue... Too many unemployed, too many people, not enough space - &, as a result, complex social & cultural issues that make things far worse.
aziz your point is WRONG. think back Aziz and come back here again. As for you; Somayya Mohamed, of Middlesbrough, United Kingdom, if you really would “much rather live in my other country, Libya.” Then why don’t you go? If I only get one reply to this then please, Somayya, please let it be you and answer me this! Otherwise please just go. Do us all a favour. Somayya Mohamed, firstly one has to wonder
To finish that sentence: ...Live & let live
Rubina, once more the voice of reason.
I am half-Libyan, half-English but I do not see myself as British simply because this country is full of white racists. I walk down the street and all I get is abuse hurled at me. I am sick to death of it and I would much rather live in my other country, Libya. The real problem in Britain is the white yobs/townies/chavs, call them what you will. They are the REAL terrorists. I have never thought about killing anyone, yet they carry knives and guns, ready to kill. That is a terrorist my friends! 2 million killed in the sudan since 1998 and not by christians but muslims!
To the British Non Muslim, pls answer my question. Who started the 1st & 2nd world war? Who killed milions of Afghans,Iraqis & Palestinians? Who provoked and started the guerilla war in Columbia, El Salvador, Nicargua & other parts of Central America? Who killed million of Chechens & Xinxiang? Who killed million of Bosnian & Kosovan? Who fought among themselves in Northern Ireland? Who killed million of Moros in Phillipine? Who killed thousands of Malay Muslim in Pattani? Answer: THE CHRISTIANS Alison, Leeds: Bullshit! Rubina. The only way to ensure the safety of the public is to to do as was done during the second world war. That is to send all people of asian extraction to consentration camps, untill the muslim problem is remedied, this inclucdes any whites who are foolish enough to follow such a heinous religion. Keith, I used to lived and worked in London and gone through the difficult life when dealt with the British White who are arrogant and selfish. But there are lot of British white who are good, helpful and open minded especially those who knew the history of British colonial days. The Muslim will never been to UK if the British did not practiced the colonialism or Imperialism. Your fore fathers were there in their countries before. Malay proverb said: U just like frog under the coconut shell. ted? unfortunately, as it is with all of the human race, there will be good muslims and those with selfish agendas; it does not help anyone to attack muslims willy nilly on the grounds of the way they act, there are 1million in this country and I am happy to say every one is different. There are illegal immigrants and those who abuse the system, as have many christians, hindus and sikhs i'm sure. The crux of the problem is that Muslims 'do not strive to integrate' in a free country over forty years ago to better their and their family's prospects-is this illegal? they were actively recruited by the British Government but it seems that due to differences and clothing and personal/religious preference in a free society they will be made to feel outcasts from hereon in because of the actions of a very small minority within their midst. there are people of all religions and colours who abuse the welfare and immigration policies of this country-why are muslims continually targe I am sick to death of hearing about Muslims supposedly coming here to Britain, not working but demanding taxpayers' money for their own services eg. muslim burial grounds. Every muslim i know in my extended family and acquaintances works hard and pays all their taxes and is in return grateful for all the servics they receive eg the health service. my parents have lived here forty years and have never missed any of their taxes. this is not to say that all muslims are like them and they came here Keith, Geordieland, UK: Hear hear- and I say this as a Muslim. I understand your feelings and sentiments; but, would like to add that the media is to blame for much of this. Having said this though, we in general do not help ourselves in this either. Personally, I would welcome someone to ask to me what I think, but that would not sell newspapers and call me cynical if you wish, sensationalism sells. Personally I am sick and tired of hearing about muslims this and muslims that and their religion, I'm fed up with seeing them in their veils and wanting special treatmen, I'm at the point where I would like to walk down the street without seeing one because that's what you have done to me, I've been turned into someone who is now anti-muslim and as are most of my friends, well done because we used to live and let live.....not any more. Alison, Leeds: What do you say of those Muslims that are born and bred in the UK and are of Anglo-Saxon extraction like yourself? I'm assuming that is what you are. What these people have attempted to do is beyond reason and most Muslims do not condone such heinous crimes. Rubina....If your fellow supposedly educated immigrant professionals are of the same calibre as the doctors who tried to murder people at Glasgow Airport, the i can say that we should stop all immigration of Muslims, as these are the only immigrants who support murder. At the moment we have unemployed British born doctors in this country - as highlighted by the recent recruitment row. We as taxpayers have paid to train them. We have a similiar situation with some nursing disciplines. We should be employing our own people first. They after all are our fellow citizens. At the moment we leach medical staff from poorer countries who desperatly need them at home. Is this right? Britain is one of the most overcrowded countries on the planet. We need space. The point that most people are missing is that we need immigration in this country. We need an influx of educated professionals as we are not producing our own. You need only visit your local hospital to see most of the trained staff are of foreign extraction. Why do people constantly harp on about
I am mixed race. I was born in here in Britain, and raised here. I am a muslim and I am slave to the almighty. I have faith in my lord no one can take it from me. And I love living here. I will not forget my roots but I was born here so this is my life aswell. Inshallah we can learn to love. And never be trapped in the system. Gunhilde, York: Thank you for your supportive comments. I am at a loss as to where these statistics appear from and who are these Muslims that are asked for their views. I am born and bred in the UK; I am a British Citizen whose faith is Islam. This is very different from a British Muslim; I am not one of these, much the same as my friends who are not British Christians or British Jews. Your shock is the same as mine. Rubina - You have always struck me as a thoughtful poster and I do think you have a point about the appalling standard of grammar generally but the fact remains that one in four Muslims say they would not report a potential terrorist act to the police. I can think of no other group who would adopt this attitude. I demonstrated against the war in Iraq before it started and I don't know what left me more shocked - a deceitful government or the attitudes of many of the Muslims I encountered. Tom Wilson, London: You are talking utter rubbish on all counts! For example, you only have to read the posts submitted here by the indigenous population to see they too have a problem with grammar and spelling. I'd be interested to hear views on the English living in Spain. Muslims have made no attempt to integrate into Britain or to become assimilated into British society. Judging by the standards of pigeon English exhibited here by some 'British born' muslims, I doubt if much 'Britishness' has been absorbed into their head.
John, Leeds, UK: Might I suggest that brush up on your bias skills. Clearly you only judge the writing skills of those people with non-English names. It is evident that yiu are not university educated and extremly ignorant yourself. I have lived in the U.K. for 10 years and met many good people from many cultures and faiths and also non-believers. I have a faith but it is private - all religions teach it is not for us to judge. Let us stop all this hating. Part of the problem is each faith trying to gain power. They want to say they are the true one. Well if they are most of the followers will be good decent people. Most people will be impressed when they meet kind men and women who care for others. Rukshana. If the doctors are as well educated as you are we are all in trouble. if your parents have lived in this country for years then how come you cannot even put a sentence together? Like we all know you ignorant Muslims don't want to integrate. Also Muslims are not nor have they ever been welcome in this country, except by the university educated do-gooders and the government looking for cheap labour. i am shocked that i have in my country of birth, within a close range, within the nhs, that pays these evil persons a wage to give within this country that most of us within this region regard has comfortable has doctors,that are ready to destruct innocent lives and peoples far poorer than them, who struggle to live within day to day,to afford the comfortable life that they have been given, within this country,who upon conparision with other countries upon which poverty reigns, are well provided Speaking as someone brought up just outside Glasgow may I point out Rukshana that this is possibly not the best time to tell us how lucky we are to have Muslims working for the National Health Service.
cont... wish to do terrible, indescrimate, evl things to innocent people. The attack on Glasgow was one of the most horrible since it was timed with when the most parents would be taking their children on holiday. If they cannot investigate these groups they cannot protect us; not just Britains but Muslims too. Most polls show that up to 25% of Muslims wouldn't tell the police if they knew about a terrorist plot so how is MI5 supposed to investigate these people? Please help me explain. Salam. I've never written on this board before but after this weekend I wanted to discuss this. I fully support people's right to not be spied on, searched, etc.and I have nothing against Muslims but I wanted to ask why British Muslims keep asking the government to stop Jihadi terrorists but at the same time they don't feel that the government should investigate Muslims. If this was any other group wouldn't you expect MI5 to investigate them? It is true that there are some Muslims that.. Cont I respect peoples rights to have religion. If fact I often admire peoples faith.
well am Muslim and i think that Muslim should be taught because i got friends that think am not cool they also make fun of me that i cover my hair and that in summer time i don't wear swimming suits or go out with boys is not that bothers me but i really want them to know why i do that and i can't explain it can you tell me how to explain it to them please thanks Saira - you say that all religions stem from Islam??? Even those ones that cheekily preceded it by thousands of years? You'll be saying next that Shakespeare and Marlowe got most of their inspiration from Enid Blyton.
Isn't the term 'British Muslim' just a polite way of saying hey we might be British but we prefer to be identified as Muslims. I've never heard anybody referring to themselves as British Christian, or British Jewish, these groups seem to accept their British identity with pride and without the need to qualify their religion. Doesn't 'British Muslim' expose the segregationist mentality of all Muslims and isn't that the the core of the problem? Muslims wanting their own burial grounds in Leeds. Expecting the public to pay for the facilities through their taxes. The muslims should take a leaf out of the jewish communities book. The Jews bought their own land for the purpose of burial and did not go scrounging to the poor tax payer. Muslims are the only group of immigrants who constantly demand for others to pay for them. Get off your scrounging arses and support youselves. Amanda London if you studied Islam you would find that every other religion stems from Islam...from Adam(as) to Muhammad(saw) these were all sent by Allah(God)but along the way people strayed and made up there own beliefs, i can whole heartedly say Islam is the true religion. when we die we will be questioned in the grave and there will be judgement day..we have not been created just to go about our business and do as we please...we have been created to worship God...believe as you please I personally dont think that there is anything to be proud of in Britain.Other then the fact that the government allows free speech and allows us to practise our religion.As a muslim woman it is very important for me to live in a country where i can practice my relegion. i do feel some attachment to Britian because my friends and family are here and there isnt any other place i would like to live.People class me as a British muslim as i act very British but im just a muslim with no nationality. to hear all these people criticising us,our religion really hurts me.cause i know that islam is the only true religion.chritianity and jewdism could have been but only if people left the torah and bible as Allah[swt] had reaveled.the world would have been a place of peace and tranquility. no body has the right to blame Allah for anything.i say this cause when problems occur for some people they always say why did Allah [swt] have to do this to me.He [swt] never guides the misguided. salam to all my brothers and sisters, i dont think but i know i am a muslim in britain.i was born in britain but that doesnt make me a british muslim.britain, uk its just a lace.that doesnt specify your religion.i was watching shariah tv the other night and this question was 1 of their topics.and the amount of rubbish people were talking about is absoloutely unbelieveable.personally i think if ur a true muslim in your heart then u will know what you are.its not something you have to think about. people call brits racicist but muslims in my town dont or want to integrate it may be an old saying but when in rome do what the romans do i a from irish parent they came to england in the fifties but they got on with life not demanding all things their own way britain first of all was built upon christianity not islam.because of britains ungodliness and because it has forsaken the one true god jesus christ,as a judgement we are now surrounded by our enemies as far as beliefs go.no shock as we are in the day when christ could return at any time.we need to turn to him and repent of our sin before it is to late.may the love of our lord jesus christ be with you as your eyes are opened and you accept him as both lord and saviour.it is heaven or hell. Sadat-British people tolerate nudist beaches because it is part of our culture to do so. Very few British people have problems with the Hijab - though some Muslim countries ban it. We don't like face veils because we see them as anti - social and threatening. This is not hypocracy it is a matter of cultural norms.If I went to an Islamic country I hope I would have the good manners to observe the norms of that country.I notice you don't add humility or toleration to your list of Islamic virtues. a true muslim can show himself as a muslim in britain. a true muslim is who have trust on allah and he spends his life on the sunah of prophet mohammed. As an indigenous Briton I ask this of British Muslims: Respect our culture and our cultural heritage. Try to understand why our society is as it is. When Britons feel our culture and way of life is under threat, then we become insular and fearful. That is where anti-Muslim feeling breeds. If Muslims respect our culture and heritage, prepare to make some compromises, then there is no reason why we can't live peacefully together. Irfan:
Irfan, interesting that whilst "no-one asked the US/UK to rescue them from tyranny", the 80%+ of the people of Iraq who queued for hours to vote (under the threat of violence) may not agree. Remember the US/UK have a long history of fighting tyranny and handing the country back to their antagonists at the end of the war(s). Dear Justice, your comments show a deep and disturbing stereotype of muslim immigrants that has probably been coloured by the media you read. There are many of us muslims who have not only contributed to society but also tolerated racists attacks on muslim soil. Remember no one asked the UK/US to 'save us' from tyranny and there is no way they would have come unless it served their own interests. I hope you are able to see through the self serving hypocricy to recognise that we are all human. The biggest threat to the Welfare State is the large influx of mainly Muslim people who do not want to conform to the standards of their adopted country but want all the benefits despite the fact they have not contributed one penny to society. They seem to do nothing else but complain about the foreign policy of this country whose aim is to provide democracy in the states they ran away from. Perhaps if they stayed and fought against tyranny then our soldiers would not be there fighting for them. Muslims born in England, do you regard yourslf as English?
(continued...)
I am a Muslim from Tamil Nadu, south India. I am not British. I don't want to be a imperial racist. The problems Muslims face is merely economic. But the problems faced by British is social. Self-discipline, honesty, virtue, fear of sin, conscience and integrity are hallmarks of we Muslims. But British morals are loose. They have no problem with nudist beaches but cry wolf over hijab. That reveals their double standards. I am proud of being a Muslim and belong to the vast brotherhood of Islam. So Abdullah what was it that brought a "Muslim first" person leave a muslim country to come to a christian country with christian principles? Couldn`t be the improved standard of living here would it? So don`t give me the "Muslim first" nonsense you are a hypocrite. I always identify my self as muslim first.I am amuslim in Britain.I am from Uzbekistan have been living here for 4 years.I think my identity is best defined By Islam.I can say anything better than that.Because I do n't know exactly what is uzbekness or Britishness. The idea of the seperation of church and state is what it is all about. To say I am a Christian/Jew/Muslim first is fine but you can not be a citizen of a country and not owe it your allegiance. Keep your culture but respect the culture of the country your are living in. I want all the benifits of citizenship but I do not feel I should have to pay a price for it. Your freedom to worship your God as you will is not a right but a privilege afforded you by the people of the UK. love it not leave it Muslims need to try to understand British culture and history. I find, as a Muslim that so many of my Muslim brothers don't actually know anything about British religion (i.e. Christianity)I, like them are proud to be a Muslim, but how can you make these sweeping statements without knowing the truth. I read the before Books and I now know more about Christianity, and its very different to what I was taught at mosque school. I think Muslims need to find out the truth, then we can boldly speak out Thankyou Judge Dread - you have just demonstrated why all Muslim immigration into Europe should be halted now. You don't want to participate, you want to dominate every other culture here. The London bombers shot their fox too early. We, the rest of multicultural Britain now know what you are. The days when we kow towed to you due to political correctness are over. The only people sadly to benefit from Muslim immigration into the U.K.are the B.N.P. They must be so grateful for your support. .....continued....People who live in areas where there are others like them are not separatists. If that was the case, just look at all those little cultural and racial ghettos of little caucasian native english villages scattered up and down this country.
It is a bit simplistic to say that one should leave the UK if one is unhappy about some aspect of life in the UK. If this was a policy then we should ask all the Conservatives to leave and go to Australia, South of France etc.
If u dont like England then get out of here, just like most countries there are benefits and drawbacks, however if u feel as a muslim u cant properly practice your religion then u could always move out.
I was born in London and I am proud of London. I have found that it makes no difference where you are from; we are all equal here in London. If we all agree that there is one god and are also able to keep our own language, then why do we not agree that we are able to say a bird is a bird in English and also in Chinese, why do we insist on a particular word. I am disappointed that Muslims are being drawn into this game of separatism and exclusion. This is the game the warmongers have been using to make us fight each other. These people are only doing this to make sure we can never unite against injustice; if we did then they wouldn’t be able to own the monopoly board. I am a Muslim because I know that “There is none worthy of worship except God” and I wouldn’t dream of taking anothers “haqq”, what difference does it make which language I say it in? I am Muslim first!living in Britain amongst people of different religions, beliefs and cultures.In Allahs final revelation the most merciful and most compassionate teaches us the importance of this [Yusufali 49:13] O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). If we reflect the attributes of our Prophet the people of Britain too would want to be Muslim first. Im a Muslim in Britain . No i do not feel im british . i do not feel happy being a muslim in britain. i do not feel proud living in britain , it was never my choice but rather my husand job transfer . home is morocco , always , even though im from Algeria. i do not follow british Football. my children support Liverpool and Manu . Well said 'dismayed'. There is delinitely a growing undercurrent of hate against Islam and Muslims by the indigenous population of Briain. It is brought about by the arrogant self pitying loadmouthed amongst the Muslim population. They don't realise that it is the Government and the 'do-gooders' who want them in this country(cheap labour) and the general public is growing steadily tired of Muslims! If muslims think that they can force their views on the British, then they haven`t learnt the lesson of history.
Oh boy -
it is beautiful to see that in your country you can speak about Islam freely here in France even if one is French better are worth nothing to say So Abdul Hanif knows that the majority of Jews put Istael before the UK, and that british Jews killed british soldiers. This is an absolute calumny. Abdul you are an absolute lyer.My father was both Jewish and a serviceman serving his country during the war, and is the most patriotic person I know.It is true that I support Israel but my chief loyalty is with my country of birth, England. steven hunter, halifax, United Kingdom.. If you are not happy to be in Britain.. why not emigrate to somewhere like Somalia,Iraq,Palestine etc. I'm sure they will find you something to do! I am a Muslim first than a British citizen. My citizenship may change any time but not my religion. In Britain we live as Muslims and obey the British Law as it does not hurt our belief. The British Law does not prevent us to lead our lives as Muslims and hence we have no reason to defy the law of the land. So, long live Islam and long live British law. I was born in England, I for one I’m a Muslim first before anything else. I pay my taxes; I don’t break the law so I don’t see what the problem is. I know the majority of Jews in this country put Israel before the UK. They even killed many British soldiers in Palestine. So what’s the issue? These new laws only affect Muslims, they were designed for Muslims. That’s why Muslims feel victimised. As for the issue: if u don’t like it leave. Why? We live here, we contributed to this country. The UK lived off the fat of our countries for many years. Ali – asks “…what are the 'native' cultural norms if you are a British-born Muslim?”,
The British establishment is a laughing stock. "Human rights"? Blair dines with Colonel Gadafi, where are his strong statements when it comes to trade links with oil producing countries? Secular apitalism is the evil ideology, not Islam. The revival of the Ummah and the re establishment of a 100% Islamic state is our responsibility. Countries will enter Islam in their folds. Islam will not be seen as an oppresive occupational force, the leaders will not be easy targets for accusations hypocrisy. Ali - I too am against the increasing authoritarian tendencies of the Labour party - and I used to be a card carrying member. Please remember though that these laws effect us ALL. Look at the non-Muslim protesters in Parliament Square and elsewhere hit by ‘terror laws’. We had a similar situation with the IRA. Many Irish people were targeted, arrested, beaten up, framed, jailed and shot by death squads in Northern Ireland. The state is not anti-Muslim per se, just over-reacting in blind panic. The simplistic way the press treats your religion is largely to blame but matters are not helped by the Muslim loony fringe, particularly the converts who try to be more extreme to prove their belief. A lot of the tension could be reduced if only people would try to melt into the society rather than wear fancy Arab dress, veils and the like to annoy the natives. I will try to address you last question later. PS Good to hear from a thoughtful poster! Charles - I agree with a lot of what you have said - I do believe in equality of the sexes, property and legal rights. However, it is essential to realise that it is precisely the British Rule of Law that is not being implemented, it is changing to target a particluar group - and when ANYONE feels like that you do the obvious - reassert your identity and beliefs. On the same note, what are the 'native' cultural norms if you are a British-born Muslim? Ali - Britain welcomes people who respect the liberal ethic and the British Rule of Law. Problems only arise when incomers or those born into our culture try to assert lifestyles and practices undermining it. For example, Sharia law, where it challenges our law, female circumcision, forced marriages, restriction of female rights and education would all be off limits. I believe in equality of the sexes, equal inheritance, property & all legal rights - do you? People often confuse a tolerant society with anarchy and imagine that ANY weird cultural and wonderful practices have to be tolerated. This is not what it means. Imagine a cannibal culture turning up to live here, would he be allowed to cook and eat his fellow cannibal immigrants? Of course not. The basic rule guiding the thoughtful and educated was set out by Marco Polo (?) ‘When in Rome, do as the Romans’. You don’t have to become a Catholic in Rome, just respect the society and try not to upset the native cultural norms if you want to live there. Simple. It is great to hear some sense!In terms of integration and fitting in, maybe people should be made aware that it does not necessarily mean discarding your religion or culture - i wear a hijab & jilbab and am in a professional job. Also, many people have said that Britain is accomodating of other cultures and now Muslims are 'demanding' things and if they are not happy they should leave. However, the majority of Muslims are only trying to retain the democracy that Britain is known for. Well said Ali! This is our country and this applies to all of us that reside here regardless of our colour, race and religious beliefs. Ali - I agree with you. If you are born here what on earth does 'host country' mean anyway? It's simple, ignorant, prejudice. In a democracy the only way to control the government is by voting and the way to punish the warmongers is to gang together to vote them out. It'll be interesting to see what percentage of Muslims vote Labour next time around! Besides education, what we also need is a drive to integrate and fit in. Look at the way all these Poles have come in, fitted in and found work. A lot of people have gone on and on about being grateful for the 'host' country, but for real integration I believe we should believe that we are all a part of this country good and bad, so we should have a say in how OUR government acts and how we present ourselves. For all of us education should be a priority as it leads on to better understanding.Unlike what the Anns and Joes think, muslims have contributed a lot to Britain economically, socially and academically - take the blinkers off pls I would like all you muslims to reassure me that when you have outbred the indigenous english,and you finally become the majority (not long now) we will be afforded the same special treatment that has been given to you by our government. Isha - your belief will not put food on your table - but a days work or the social security might, nor will s/he protect your family and friends from attack or robbery, arrest criminals or imprison them, provide hospitals and education for your children nor protect the country from foreign attack. The government of the country does all that for its nationals. Belief is one thing, living in the real world, another. Believe in God but tie up your camel (ancient & wise arab saying). The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world's problems.
To ANNE IN BIRMINGHAM .... As a Muslim woman born in England I say to you that to be Muslim means that you serve Allah (God) and soby saying we are Muslim first means that we are putting Allah first ... we don't need permission for mankind or any nation to do that! Thank you. i lived two years in London i m french whith some English people in my past families and embrace Islam since ten years agos.I leaved french contry because the untolerance toward parctice Islam. But i senn lot of sectarian problems into muslims and lot of untolerance from indigenous especialy because they don't understand why a white guy embrace Islam! so i came back to france where the point of view toward Us-British colonialism are more popular than England.
TO ANYONE WHO LIVES IN THE UK WHO SAIS THEY ARE MUSLIM NOT BRTISH, BRITAIN HAS GIVEN YOU THE FREEDOM TO SPEAK LIKE THIS OPENLY/ YOU SHOULD GIVE A LITTLE RESPECT TO YOUR HOST COUNTRY.IM SURE IF YOU WERE FORCED TO MOVE TO A MUSLIM COUNTRY (WHICH I HAVE VISITED ON MANY OCCASION) YOU WOULD BE A LITTLE MORE CONCIDERATE IN YOUR APPROACH TO REJECTING THE BENIFITS ENGLAND HAS GIVEN. COLLECTIVLY YOU ARE OFFENDINGPEOPLE WHO GREW UP WITH YOU/EQUALLY. I respect religious freedom and acknowledge that it is a small minority of Muslims who hold extremist views, but I believe every country in the world should be secular and allow the people to follow whatever religion they want without forced conversion/intimidation from extremists/government. For every Muslim that is convinced their faith is the one true path, there is another person like that in Christianity/Judaism etc. Every religion has a history of forced conversion. It's time to stop that. Equality and fairness here, is what I cherish most.Stray incidences are exceptions rather than rule.
i think britain should change the way their government act for islam Assalaam-u laikam i think that YOUR RELIGION comes before your nationality because its the right way of life ,overall i think Allah made us all human-beings and we are all his creation no matter what our religion ,background or nationality .Also Allah has taught us to to be fair to all human beings ,its also our right to be good to human beings because that will make us amore sincere muslim i live in britain i was born in britain but half the time i wish i was not i believe the democratic views and policies of this country are sub standed in the way the are created and implimented, causing rifts and segrigation thoughout all of the communities, races and religous groups in britain i may be proud to be british but as i believe that being british is just being born somewhere it doesnt mean i have to like living here Salam
I feel what has happened id totally unacceptalbe, the Uk is a great, has any bodody asked why shuch a disasterest thing happened, and why young muslims are so fustrated?
@Munir, I didn't know it was a competition, but I think you'll find that the suicide bombers blowing up fellow muslims out there tend not to be white.
All this fuss over nothing. Having watched cuts from big brother i cannot see or hear any racism. It is just a has been Indian actress looking for some limelight, and all her followers jumping on the racism bandwagon. All asians are now looking for the slightest excuse to bleet about racism because they know that the ruling whites are all too ready to stab their own in the back. It is time that all the English left Britain and started again somewhere else. @Russ. No white bombers? What about those dropping bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan? I am pretty sure they will be ALL white. They have dropped much more bombs and killed much more innocent civilians than any 'Asian' bomber has in British History in UK. Nice one Atul,just as there's a media frenzy about "racism" on the show, you do your bit to add to it, whilst indulging in our "petty issues" yourself ! What - nothing better on Delhi TV ?
for shilpa shetty on big brother, whole of india is behind you, british are known for their indulgence in such petty issue, they have always believed in devide and rule, nothing new for Indian but now we know how to handle this, Through Big Brother the appropriate answer will be delivered.... SAD FOR BRITISHERS THEY CAN'T STAND INDIANS WINNING OVER THEM I'm British & I'm Muslim. Whoever says that they are mutually exclusive is ignorant. I'm proud to be British, just as I'm proud to be Muslim. Note to all u haters out there: a convert once said 'if I had looked at the people before looking at the book (Qur'an) i would never have become Muslim'. read the book, learn the religion, and then comment. Same goes to all the Muslims who are defending Islam here- i've seen good attempts here, but u cant defend that which u dont understand. I have a red beard and can trace my heritage - family origin - back to the Viking invasion of England; and I say that Muslims are welcome in my country - why? because England has been a 'salad-bowl' of different ethnic and political communities for hundreds of years. Muslims pay much in taxes that keep this country working...keep your chin up Muslims, we vikings did, and we're still here enjoying the fruits of this lovely country. mohammad, London. You have the typical arrogant attitude of all muslims. whilst you have the privilage of living in a civilised western society, you will abide by our laws. Your religion is your own personal choice. there are many religions, why is it that it is only the muslim religion that thinks it is above the law of our country. I have read a myraid of different comments here.I am orginally from the deep south USA.The area I am from I had never seen a veiled woman before. It shocked me. I felt instant compassion for the poor soul underneath the veil.When I moved here there was no more sweet tea and many other things I miss. But I do not out and try to change the things or the people here. I go by their rules not by my own.They extended me a privilge by allowing me to attain a Visa.My theroy is if you dont like it leave Faithful. Get a grip. Giving up wanting and trying to be British is not an option if you wish to live in this country. You must not expect the indigenous people to accept foreign culture; you need to adapt to the host culture and then add to it with elements that complement and not oppose the indigenous people. I can assure you that Britain is far kinder to Muslims than muslim countries are to Christians. Try being Christian in Saudi, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria for starters i believe i am a muslim in britain living my life as a british citizen and as ALLAH as my provider alone. i respect the laws of uk as long as it does not go against islam. i respect all people and show i am a muslim In all honesty, I gave up wanting to be British 4 years ago, having tried so hard to become and be like the indigenous populous but felt that whatever I did, I was never fully accepted for who I was. Having finally discovered the deen properly, I can't say that I am upset that Allah (swt) has guided me and inshallah, i pray he continues to do so. iam a African muslim and Islam is a good religion which i think everyone should give a chance and see what ISlam is? the true mean of the religion.it deosn't matter what identity your are, muslim women are all the same. i think it is about time muslim women stand up and correct the wrong thing that the men caused for our religion and give other non-muslim the true mean of Islam. especially when ti come to women.people are human and are willing to learn if someone who is willing to teach them.pea I am a welsh white woman and i think Islam is a beautiful religion as are all religions, because they all promote good human qualities and peace. However this gets manipulated by unknown and known sources of power. We all believe in something so why not learn about each other and not pollute our minds with negative views about our fellow man. We are all equal in the eyes of the lord and people who do bad do it for there own selfish reasons and not because of religion... Thats what I think... I am a British hindu and proud of it. In fact most hindus and Indians are proud of it and wouldnt change it. We are British because we do British things and we like doing them. Muslims in Britain are ruining our last 30 years of successful integration.
Sorry Tom Joans but your note is a cop out. Your place of birth is not important to me either. However, you do choose where to live your life and the indigenous majority of this country expect you to be loyal to this country above other countries - it is our culture. Within our culture, you are also free to practice your religion. However, if you follow the violent and expansionist directives within the Qu'Ran then expect to be opposed in the strongest possible way. i don't mind so much about the ethnic minoritys, what buggs me is the people hu come into our country and live off our benifits!!!!! i also dont agree with the different religens being aloud to wear all their head gear while being at work!! what people have to realise is they are in England now!!! why do we have to make exceptions! another thing that annoys me is they don't even bother to learn our language. plus we no longer have the freedom, We Are Called Racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a Muslim. I am part of the Muslim Ummah.
Multiculture is not acceptable. Somayya Mohamed sounds like a colonist and should go back to Libya if he doesn't want to integrate. People like him need to wake up as even mainstream politicians can sense the unrest in the indigenous population. Integrate or emigrate - and I don't care where. Charles/Joe,much is true - most working class around me would agree with Joe.Most middle class around me would agree with Charles,but choose not to live in the melting pot areas - often as crap,dirty (+ defoliated)& ghetto'ised as Joe says.
So, it's Joe for ethnic cleansing. What is your final solution for children of mixed race and children of non-whites born here? How will you solve the problem you perceive when faced with British residents and passport holders who are not white or pink like you?
People write some real rubbish on here. Kate says she is Irish and Catholic but fails to recognise the evil behind the great famine. Bottom line is that corn and meat was still being exported out of the Ireland when millions were starving. The potato blight was a natural disaster but the suffering was caused through greed not religion or idealism. Charles - say what you like, most white britons in my area are fed up with multiculturism and want immigrants out, the ethnic ghettos cleared up and entire areas of our town back. I remember areas where i grew up in Ipswich were clean and full of working white Brits (and some dole grabbers but thats always been the case) but now streets are full of people in full Muslim dress, crap all over the roads, houses nearly collapsing, all down to dirty ethnic immigrant ways and a crap government. Thanks Rubina and Russ. To me, the shoe bomber looked white which is probably why he was chosen to die. The manipulators using him correctly assumed broad minded thinkers like Joe would be behind the airport check-ins. And I wonder how Joe fits the Arab maniac element steering all this into his narrow view? I am a Muslim first of all. Then I am Libyan and English. I don't see myself as British. I feel Libyan more than I feel English, because I am more in touch with Libyan culture. But it is a very beautiful thing to be mixed-race, I have two cultures, two countries and two languages. I even hold a British and Libyan passport. Hey Russ! You are quite right. There was a white Muslim of English desecnt arrested at the time. I am a Muslim 1st. This is my true identity, it governs the way I behave in society by following the guidance of the Qur'an/Sunnah. There is no confusion there.
Without wishing to drag this relative side issue out, I think there mayve been a white Brit among the numerous Walthamstow arrests some time back. Certainly recall seeing it splashed across the popular press. Whether it went anywhere I do not know....Perhaps this makes everyone right !
Charles.
Although I am Muslim, I definitely consider myself British - while I disagree with this country's foreign policy, I am definitely proud to be British.
Charles, whilst accepting your point,a minor correction - Richard Reid (the shoe bomber)from sth London,is mixed race having a Jamaican father.Converted whilst in Young offenders institution,I read.
The shoe bomber was white. Duh. Converts try harder to be 'pure' in order to be accepted, making ideal cannon fodder suckers for the manipulators who consider themselves too 'valuable' to blow themselves up. Weird that anyone could make their purpose in life, ending their life. Far more likely to make Islam a world beacon by being honest, fair, successful, considerate, tolerant, patient, peaceful, creative etc. and set a model others are envious to follow than by promoting insane savagery. Kate.
The majority of Muslim comments on this site display arrogant hypocrisy, they show no willingness for rational debate.
i am born in england and will stay here yes i am a muslim but that does not take away my rights of living in england and it does not steal my rights of wearing a hijaab i and everyone have the rights of living a free safe and desireable life
Can those ppl who mock islam and label it as an 'evil religion' etc, allow their brains to expand and not be so narrow-minded. Maybe if u truly explored the faith solely (and by that i dont mean following other ppls ideas) u may understand the religion as it is rather than judging it by what the media fills u with and watchin others muslims. b true to urselves. Islam requires muslims to respect the laws of the land that they live in. try to respect everyone guys..no mata wot thats how it shud b. Jamal -
proud of my name, proud of my fore farthers,like so many differant bus routes, all merging onto one town centre, there is only one God and we share,(the name Stanley) was the first muslim in the house of lords, and for me, every bit as proud of that,as any man should be kind regards Mel Stanley Mr Akojja, Lagos, Nigeria asks who is doing most of the killing in Iraq? However, he comes to the conclusion that the occupying forces are killing the most people which is ignorant of the facts. Shi'ites and Sunnis are doing the killing of each other in order to grab power or perhaps split the country into 3 with the Kurds. Muslims are killing Muslims; sorry but that is the truth of what I saw. I suggest you get better informed in Lagos and don't count on BBC bias. "Rank hatred has appeared from their mouths - but what their hearts conceal is far worse"
away my freedom to have my own belief's. If laws are passed based on one groups religious beliefs then it is not indicative of all the citizens of this country. I'm not saying that people should be allowed to insult Islam however I think that everyone should be free to believe whatever they want. It should be a matter of courtesy and if we could develop some tolerance for everyone's beliefs then it wouldn't happen. We all need to accept responsibility for the actions and the attitudes today. I am a Canadian buddhist living in London and I have witnessed the growth of Islamophia in this country in recent years. I have to say though that I don't think it is unfounded. I am not saying that anything can condone this behaviour however it does seem that Muslims are trying to avoid the issue that there is a growing movement either directly linked to or hiding behind the Islamic community. The moderates say they abhore these terrorist groups but at the same time a recent poll said... I am surprised that anyone would choose to call themselves ‘Muslim-British’ or plain ‘Muslim’ after the astonishing dropping of the veil by the Australian cleric Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali. His derisory view of women, his view of their worth and place in society - and his view that men have no responsibility or self-control over their sex drives nor any blame for anything they might do to ‘uncovered meat’ (women) - ought to make anyone choose to describe themselves as British or European as the first descriptive of their identity. His attitude certainly explains why women living in backward countries, where such misogynistic attitudes were spawned and prevail, might feel safer behind a veil. One can only pity such a ‘plate of meat’ existence. Al-Hilali’s views also serve to highlight why, by wearing a veil in Britain today, all men, regardless of their faith, might feel insulted, offend and tarred by such insinuation. It is this sort of thing which unnecessarily divides our community and there really is no excuse for it. Thank goodness the vast majority of British Muslims recognise this. I have lived here for 17 years and continue to be Italian. Personally, I cannot understand why I should become Britih. I may consider myself a European Muslim and would feel rather ashamed of being more nationalist. Is Europe not integrating at all? Mr Akojja - Fair enough. But why would USA want to encourage Arab Muslims, apparently/supposedly linked to Al Quada, who hate the USA, to drive out and kill the black Muslims? Is it about Arab 'pure Muslim' racism? On the 'follow the money/oil' principle then China is the big gainer. Seems to me genocide is occurring and the UN/USA is frightened of calling it that precisely to AVOID having to act. Can't Nigeria spend some of its oil squillions on saving it's near neighbours from extinction? To the not so bright Richard of York. 'Get out' 'go home' are phrases ive heard far too often directed towards muslims. So what advice would you have for me a White caucasian male Convert to Islam, where should i go home? Because of most of your neo-Facist mentality you cant see past the fact that Islam is not a country or race. What would you do with the over 1000 white christian converts a year in this country. We are Muslim and this is our country wether you like it or not. To Charles, I am not trying to deny that there are many people in tents in Darfur, who are suffering from civil conflict. What I am trying to highlight is th fact that this conflict is being indirectly stirred up by American/foreign agents, a fact which is not so often shown by mainstream media. Which Nations support the World Bank and IMF which usurps the wealth of weaker countries through "free trade" and which nations supported the invasion of Iraq which has led 655000 civilian deaths? Mr Akojja - sensible not to swallow all you read and see. Wise to engage the brain. Please explain the hundreds of thousands of poor black souls, mainly female, we see in tents in Darfur being fed by the UN. Is this a cunning BBC illusion? As I understand it China has cornered the Sudan's oil. I don't see much evidence of Chinese or Arab food aid or workers. Now, why is that? And which nations pay the most to the UN to feed the starving? What happens to Nigeria's oil wealth? To Steve, why is Osama my friend?
The wholepoint of stirring up conflict is so that UN can intervene of behalf of the US,as you know there is alot of natural wealth in that region and the US wants it. Think about it, a conflict in Sudan does not benefit the Sudan, it benefits those who want to steal her wealth, just like in Iraq. If Mr Bin Laden has "warned" the West not to intervene in Darfur, I presume he does not want the "humanitarian" help which has ruthlessly taken the lives of 655000 Iraqis to be inflicted on the Sudanese To Steve, regarding my not fully responding to Arth Kenny's post, would like to say since we are limited to 500 characters, this does not permit for a thorough enough discussion about the conflict in Darfur. Although I am not Sudanese, I have many friends from there, and they tell me along with my limited research that the conflict there is not as the mainstream media would have you believe. There are many rarely reported instances of where american backed groups are stirring conflict. Muslims go home, home many times does this have to be said. You fail to integrate and do completely the opposite by demanding that we give you more consideration towards your faith, beliefs and practices. Rubbish !! This is BRITAIN, live by OUR way or if you dont like it, go home where you belong.... but oh I forgot, no NHS there of benefits system for you to sponge off ! You dont belong here, WE DONT WANT YOU here, you are scum, we hate you and everything you stand for !!!!! ->So from a young persons perspective,i ask you to think about what affect your opinions have on young society.When I see a women,assumedly,dressed in full black with a veil hiding her face,im worried,perhaps scared,but even more so im angry.This is fuelled by the media and the opinions I am hearing everyday from the adults around me.My point is, be careful of the imact you are having on younger minds,you are potentially moulding a generation full of hate and fear.The future?...think about it. im 16.iv always been brought up to see everyone as equal, despite race, religion, appearance etc but i have to admit that as im getting older this is beginning to change. i would not regard myself as racist, nor would i ever want to become that, but with the current and ever growing tension between muslims and non-muslims in Britain and Europe, how can fear and isolation not be bred?Not all young people, myself included, are in full knowledge of where things beagan or political stands on things. Regarding the veil, a large percentage of communicatin is non verbal. Not just what we say but our facial expressions etc. In this country people are accustomed to this full form of communication in face to face meetings. Is it any wonder why people take offence or do not like the veil or feel uncomfortable with someone who has a veil. Communication is more than just what is said. Come on you people - integrate into this society. Not live in your sub societies. To Mr Akojja, you conveniently didn't reply to the other part of Arth Kenny's post - the genocide committed in Darfur by Muslims. You are being typically selective in what you read and take offence with. Even your friend Osama has 'warned' the West not to get involved in Darfur. What a humanitarian! As a Muslim I feel I am Muslim first and British second. A Muslim in Britain would be the nearest. My identity is founded upon my religious beliefs. I am proud to be living in Britain because at least we are allowed a say in daily life here. I am currently despairing of the total lack of understanding from the government or should I say the total understanding of events triggered by them to create a hijaab free state. I usually support Brirain in sporting fixtures. Home to me is my flat. To Arth Kenny
Was pleased to see Straw agreeing with my comments below.
I am puzzled by the Muslim policeman who was afraid to guard the Israeli embassy. Please could you ask him if he was afraid of the Israelis or of his fellow Muslims? as salam alaykoum im a converted muslim and im proud to be muslim dont care wat anyone says about islam i no its right religion Whats the big deal?: Muslim OR British shouldnt be an issue. If being a British is a major deal then wouldn't the Qur'an and/or Hadiths tell you Not to live here. Britain gives many priveldges to Muslims more over the non-Muslims even though it is originally a Christian Country - I cant seem to name any Muslim country which does the same for Non Muslims. So i say that we should learn to appreciate and accept Britain or just be quiet and Leave. I am a proud British Muslim as i appreciate Britain what pisses me off is that you come into our country and then instead of livingas we do you try to change everything every year at xmas we used to hold a nativity play about the baby jesus but last year it was cancelled because it might cause afence to non christians come on your having a laugh no wonder every one hates you live as we live and stop wanting to change things if i went to a muslim country and wanted to open a christian school i would be hung or beheaded stop taking the piss or go . How can Muslims point their finger at the West for killing Muslims, when the Muslim lead genocide in Dahfur is killing hundreds of thousands of Africans? And exactly WHO is doing most of the killing in Iraq? Muslims! as i see it, islam doesn't belong to any specific geography, race or colour. it just belongs to all humanity.the way we sometimes behave by saying 'we muslims' makes me angry. it is from god to all the human race and no one should've the right to claim sole proprietorship unlike judaism or christianity or hinduism...etc. strongly feel about this issue but i don't know how to express it, please help me last week I went to my friends wedding..he is a Pakistani muslim. The people at the wedding spanned quite alot of the muslim spectrum from westernised to the veil and all (I hope) had a great time. It is nonsense to talk of muslims not intergrating and also nonsense to talk about Masons and the west wanting to destroy islam (just walk down a street in London and see how many Muslim live here peacefully and safely. In the end most people want peace except the sad Munirs and WASPS of this world.
Asad Husain Jafri “A Muslim does not belong to one specfic Country, that is not a Muslim's identity. His identity is his faith…”.
Iftikhar - If you'd prefer to live in Pakistan with its different lifestyle, culture and virtually non-existent health, education, social security, benefits and pensions systems - go and live there and stop whining. To live and work in this country you have to try and fit in. A second language is useful but in Britain your first language should obviously be English. This is one of the richest countries in the world and we are all lucky to live here. If you'd prefer living in a society riven by poverty and ruled by some tribal court of self-appointed elders under a military dictatorship then go to it. Nothing’s stopping you except your own fears. Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is? On the other hand, if you decide to live and work here, great – just try and fit in, live by the societies rules and get on with it. Iftikhar, You should learn mainly English in school if you are being educated here in the UK. Your parents should then teach you arabic/urdu at home. I see ethnic people walking the streets with no problems at all, the odd case of racism does happen, but racism is not just a white thing. Great strides have been made in living together as one, if you wish to undo this, then do so at your own peril as British people will turn eventually as we are getting frustrated with your attitudes... Let's face it,UK entry to the EU followed by France et al,trying to build a power to rival the USA has failed.Multiculturalism was a great idea but has failed in the face of those who want to build a theocracy through the bomb or the ballot box,or even repopulation.Time to part ways,preferably peacefully. Iftikhar Ahmad, Forest Gate: You are talking absolute bollocks!
Salaam
A Muslim does not belong to one specfic Country, that is not a Muslim's identity. His identity is his faith with Allah(swt) and that in relation to our Holy Prophet(P.B.U.H). However I class myself as a European Muslim and British Muslim, due to my birth place and external cultural heritage. Our origin is that all with Hazrat Adam. Any improvements which can be made are all Muslims abiding with the judicial state law and helping the suppressed and especially boycoting the freemason's, Zionists! I used to think it would be wonderful if everyone in the world could live side by side in peace. Not now, I realise this was a childish pipe dream.
I would just like to point out that up until recently I believed in love thy neighbour no matter what race, religion etc,however I must say that my views and opinions are changing when I see Muslims demanding that British people should change for Muslims and their beliefs. The majority of British people tolerate other races and beliefs. however this will change unless Muslims start to intergrate, get on with life and be quiet like the rest of us, also why dont Muslims condemn acts of terrorism? Shhhhhh ,we at the islamic school have got away with it so we can still train to slauther the infedels Ah hang on a minute who is going to payng the taxes for our sponging and for the grant to our peace loving admired news on
A fantastic site, and brilliant effort. A great piece of work., you can see that mulims don't integrate because it's mainly non muslims chatting on this list.
i see no one picked up my contention that if it is ok to accept the occupation of berber countries, such as algeria morocco etc by arabs/islam by force of arms then why is it not ok to let the israelis keep what they have 'taken'? (if you see it as a they have taken situation)
Munir, bigoted as ever & doing his best to polarise the reasonable. So we're all footie hooligans & paedophiles are we ? Because we publicise problems & not sweep them under the (Persian?) carpet ?
I was born in this country and I only know English yet with these issues I do not consider myself British because this country never does anything I want, there is constant and increasing racism and our Religion is being harassed. In my area there was once 7 Hilal butchers but because of racist people 6 have been shut down. I am hoping to leave this nation so my kids don't have to live here, inshallah M. Monaghan, London: True followers of Islam would not have forced either a 'conversion' or a 'confession' from these two men. Islam does not condone either. Unfortunately many will do as they please under the guise of religion- but that does not make it right nor how it should be. That is the nature of the beast. who is funding the extremists, the muslims that the other muslim hopefully hate? after all,if it were'nt for the extremists, surely the muslim communities would be happy and well adjusted to live in the UK? or would they?
@Ed. Followign your logic - being English will also mean not eating curries (India), not eating potato chips (South American), not using soap (Arabs), not watching television (Scottish), not using gunpowder (Chinese/Arab), getting drunk, being a football hooligan and paedophile ... surely that can't be right can it?!? Why as reported in the news were the two reporters 'Forced' to admit the Islamic formula of 'conversion'? How can a forced confession be of ANY value and does it show the historical method of Moslem history ?. Irfan Dean should go to some of the countries where Muslim fights Muslim,divided by religion & nationalism & try telling them. In the meantime the rest of us can enjoy international sport with a sense of fun & not view it with miserable,jaundiced,shit tinted glasses.
I am a Muslim living in Britain, I don't believe that Muslim should be divided based on nationalism because, Quran and Sunnah have prohibited it.
occupied palestine? ok, well, what about occupied egypt, libya, tunisia, algeria, morocco and mauretania ? NONE of these lands were muslim till they were invaded by islamic armies and to this day are under the yoke of these invaders descedants!! Mauretania is an atlantic country. Is anyone saying these lands should be returned to their rightful owners ? Ever heard of BERBERS ? Israel exists and the sooner muslims accept that fact the better. otherwise a major war is heading our way. 31 days of some of the bloodiest fighting in this decade. 1000's of Muslims slaughtered and 100's of Jews living in occupied Palestine killed. Over 1 million people lost their homes and/or seeked refuge in other parts of the country. Ports closed, bridges and other infrastructure destroyed yet sadly when it all comes down to it, what is everybody worried about? Who won this war?
Being born in Britain no more makes you British than being born in a stable makes you a horse. The indiginous British feel their Britishness and kinship almost at a genetic level. I have a stake in this country earned by the blood, sweat & toil of generations of ancestors (yes I can trace them). I resent grasping ungrateful Muslims arriving and immediately demanding & expecting, at the very least, social & financial equality & religious freedoms which have taken my family generations to earn. i m really happy to discover a site that speak about muslims in all over the world and i m so glad to join u thank u
Ed, London: The fact that one is English and a Muslim is ok- the two marry very well indeed.
let's not play silly bugger here. being english is not wearing a veil, not praying 5 times a day facing mecca, not fasting for 30 days year, not accepting honour killings, not shaving your head and having a long black beard, not wearing clothes that haven't changed in 2000 years or more, not marrying your cousins....etc etc. integrate ? how can folks who fit the above integrate with us ? do me a favour. did the english integrate with india ? I agree with Russ' comments to both Faaria and Charles. It really is about integration and not imposing ones' beliefs on others. Simon, Maidenhead: How do you propose we do this? I would be more than happy to face the media and condemn what is going on- the Muslim voice of reason- I'm sure I'm not alone- but would that be allowed? Of course not- sense and sensibility does not sell and does not make headlines. Faaria,this seems to be your problem.Like some here have said,the indiginous know what it is to be Brit.
Ed – Britain is a secular, not a Christian country. Try looking at church attendance figures.
Faaria..
Nothing makes me proud to live in britain anymore.Muslims are nothing but trouble,and litter the streets without a care they are disrespectful towards white people and think they are a superior race.They are the racist ones not us. I could go on forever and ever Faaria -
Rubina : I think that your last posting was in response to mine. I do not think that just condemning violence is going to change Joe Bloggs into thinking that Muslims are peace loving. What is needed is action. Do the Muslim communities have a plan for how to hunt down and stop the extremists in our cities? We need regular news headlines along the lines of "Muslim community foils terrorist plot","Mosque names and shames extremists","Mosque bans extremists". Then Joe Bloggs will believe.
I do believe in a multi ethnic Britain and multi culturalism. Most cultures have common values and mix and integrate well and Britain is the better for it. I do not see this with Muslims. The statement "I choose to live my life in accordance with Islamic teachings and values." does not sit well with me. I think that most British see Islam as one of the last bastillions of oppression and inequality in the world which must either modernise or become insignificant in the 21st century. faaria, it doesnt really matter what you feel in all this. england is a christian country and it it only a matter of time before the christians start waving the bible in your face and telling you that in fact christianity is for all mankind. english culture is not narrowly defined. the english know who the english are and it is not people from asia. how can it be? it makes me laugh to see asians call themselves english. get real !!! and stop trying to ram your alien culture down our throats. Faaira - The great thing about this country is that we do tolerate all beliefs AS LONG AS such believers respect the law and tolerate others with whom they may disagree. Problems only arise when one lot think they can introduce intolerance under the guise of defending or promoting their own beliefs and either enforce it upon their own families, followers, caste or sect or on the rest of us. Any religion or ideology that is so weak it is unable to withstand freedom of thought and expression will eventually wither away. All fanatics fear this. Wonderfully ironic, isn’t it, that at the back of the minds motivating the fanatics is the driving fear that their belief system is not robust enough to stand up to the challenges of sexual equality and educated free choice. By blowing themselves up they are parading their own lack of faith in their own religion for all to see. I describe myself as a British Muslim. I choose to live my life in accordance with Islamic teachings and values. Islam does not belong to a people, it belongs to all of mankind, and Britain no longer has a narrowly defined culture.British culture has become a culmination of a number of world cultures. I cannot define what it means to 'be British' but I see Britain as my home and I love it here.I do not 'belong' anywhere else. Its quite simply.
I am a British woman who doesn't understand why all British Muslims make themselves out to be victims. If you don't want people to look at you suspiciously, why do you insist on making yourself different? And why do you claim to have a peaceful religion, and then sit back and let what you describe as a minority attack people? You should start weeding out these evildoers before a backlash really comes along. A person has many identities. Irrespective of his birth he goes on acquiring identities starting with two at birth- a human being and secular person. Myself firstly as a human being for millions of years, an indian for at least five thousands years, muslim for 1400 years and a british for last 30 years. History says none dies a with singular identity. Please read noble laureaute Dr. Sen's book called 'Identities and violence'. We should come of this mindset. World would be better place to live. I am not a Muslim and want to understand what is being done by the majority of moderate peaceful Muslims in the UK to stamp out extremism. I have the perception that very little is being done and that there is no strong moderate Muslim voice regularly speaking out. This may not be true at all but ‘perception is a reality’ and the perceived silence from the Muslim community leads average Joe Bloggs to think that there is more widespread support for the bombers. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Joesoap of London i so agree with you!I cannot understand how a person born in a country,eg UK can turn around and say"they are not british,but a MUSLIM born in Britain!" How wacky is that! I say its downright frightening! I take each day as it comes, getting on with my life and then all i hear is muslim,muslim,muslim,WELL i am sick of that bloody word and religion!Its all how sad they all are,,well i say GET A LIFE,,and in the process Dont take ours!! if u dont like it here BLOODY MOVE ELSWHERE isn't it clear that muslims are not wanted in england ? just as christians are not wanted in saudi arabia. please go home and leave us in peace. Shukrun i think that i am a british muslim,becuase i have been bought and bred in britian,and would call it my home country. Why do you Muslims come to Britain seeing as you despise our way of life so much.Could it be for the generous benefits?? I heard a poll the other day saying that over 70% of muslim men are unemployed and in reciept of benefits.If you hate our way of life and do nothing but take,take take may I suggest you leave this country and go back to where you or your forebears came.Multi culturalism is obviously failing badly so do us all a favour and start packing your bags and go before you are forced!! I am not a muslim. however i have many good friends who are. 1 of which is a imam. i resepct their beliefs. they do not force theirs on me. we discuss the plite of our world. and of our leaders. who mislead us. it is a disaster what is happening in the far east. forget the armies and freedom fighters. others need our help more. normal everyday people. action is needed by the common man we are made from the same structure. just our beliefs differ. no god would except what is happening. Joe Soap, London: What inner cities are you referring to? I just read the news, and there's no mention of our cities being bombed. What on earth are you talking about?? Either you are hallucinating or you're living in Iraq or Palestine!
Rubina said :“Most white Caucasians in this country bleed the system dry”. MOST people in this country are white and employed so they must be paying most for the system.
You are Muslims, first and foremost not
Why do muslims thing there are British?Because they borne here
Only Terrorists Allowed to Wage War - The Conservative Voice
@Andy. If Arab/Islamic civilisation was simply keeping alive ancient Greek knowledge - then how come the Greeks were in the Dark Ages with the rest of Europe? Andy, Ipswich: Not quite as true as you think- but nevertheless a fair point.
Rubina, as you have spouted the rubbish about 'any scientific discovery' being 'most(ly) based on Arabic or contribution of a Muslim'. You are right to be proud of who you are but don't accept these myths. You will find that this knowledge is actually ancient greek and roman knowledge kept alive by the arabs until the west came out of their dark ages and revived. I'm not denigrating arabs, but be aware of arab history (not propaganda) before claiming false facts for muslims. Rubina - Mike is not worth it but you did stoop down there yourself when you said "at least ours are in wedlock.Go to any inner city estate and you'll find children of various shades of brown produced by one white mother but many different fathers; each claiming from my contribution to the tax-pot". I can't be bothered to spell out the horrors behind that type of racist thought process. Shame on you. Mike, Newcastle: Frankly Mike, you're talking a load of bollocks.
Mike, Newcastle: If you ever decide to give up your day job, try the 'Comedy Store' in Leicester Square- they're always looking for comedians! Mike, Newcastle equates to amoeba.
RUBINA: That's funny, what Muslims have brought to this and many other none Muslim countries is death! As for your Tax pot contributions - that's a bigger laugh. Collectively your tax contributions do not even cover the increase in costs of security your presence have generated! Muslims in Britain have negative value financially and culturally!
Why dont so called god followers of all religeons come out of the dark ages and live a spiritual life, if you know what that means.
I am apalled at Blair's preaching to the 'moderate muslims' to "do more"..etc.The Western Governments are creating a smokescreen over their own irresponsible actions by creating an "enemy" that simply does not exist. We are living Orwell's 1984 and it scares me. Combat 18 push the buttons....Bradford Riots for example.Never had a problem with Muslims. They would probably care more for for me than my own corrupt,native officials ever would.Take Heart.Research the Bilderberg Group...nasty reading First it was the Jews. Then the Irish. Now the Muslims. Who will it be next? Watch your back- it could be you! Fred Walton,Hull:One benefit of Muslims being here- they educate your young in the virtues of their own language because their parents speak 'street'.Talking of high birth rates- at least ours are in wedlock.Go to any inner city estate and you'll find children of various shades of brown produced by one white mother but many different fathers; each claiming from my contribution to the tax-pot. A question do you enjoy a curry every now again?- that's another Muslim contribution to your culture. Gabbani - 'When in Rome, do as a Roman.' Have you ever considered that as there is now, however adolescent, a tendency for in your face radical Muslims to wear silly beards and desert robes etc to make a point? I dressed to make a point eons ago as a Hippy and people stared at me – and some spat. Ancient pictures of the Prophet show him with a goatee or a full beard, not a fashion statement chin-strap. Perhaps people mistake your dress for a political statement? Look at the laughable Ali BaBa way Bin Laden dresses and compare that with pictures of him as a teenager. Is he trying to look like Jesus? Is he deluded into thinking he’s a prophet, this multi-millionaire? Try walking out in modest clothing worn by most British women and see if you get the same reaction. If you do not then it must be that they are reacting to the clothes NOT to the fact that you are Muslim. Most Muslims on the planet (Indonesia) see no need for face coverings and it is little more than a religious fashion statement promoted by the extreme Salafi sect. Is a bearded Muslim any less a Muslim for shaving? Isn’t Islam against such outward egotistical shows of faith? Isn’t the whole point of the Prophet’s words that women dress NOT to attract attention? In the West you might consider that ATTRACTING ATTENTION by wearing face masking might actually be un-Islamic? And consider this, if an Eskimo family came to the UK and insisted on wearing all that fur and those huge fur boots in the summer wouldn’t you stare? What if Kalahari Bushmen came to live here and wore only the skimpiest rags – would that not attract your attention and make you wonder about them? Would that be racist or just normal behaviour from the average ‘Roman’? What say you to this argument - Rubina? i am truly appauled by many of the comments from both sides of this debate.As a woman born and bred here as a Christian until i converted to islam over 20 yr ago i feel i am caught in the middle. No nation has a clear concience - we all have blood on our hands. our country has many things to be proud of,we shud also hang our heads in shame too. we must also not forget,that after the war we invited people from the commonwealth to come to uk to work.how did we get a commonwealth, we took it often GABBANI - don't bother many of us know enough and you would be wasting your time lying for the rest of your life. I am a white British born man whose parents thought it would be a good idea if I make up my own mind about religion. They were both brought up in Church of England families but thought I should be able to choose whether it would be Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Paganism etc. I was brought up with family who are Christians and 'Aunties' and 'Uncles' (friends of the family) who follow Islam. I remember being interested by religion, and I still am, I maintain strong friendships with people of the Muslim faith who respect my position on religion as I respect theirs, the same can be said of my friends who are Christian. We have fantastic debates on theology however we always agree that none of us should be held responsible for our ancestors' actions, it is foolish to suggest such, as we have no influence of the past. We should look forward. There is much talk on this forum about British people supporting wars (the most recent Iraq invasion being the only conflict that I have been of adult age to understand) and I opposed Tony Blair's invasion. However, I also know that I can do very little to stop him as demonstrations seem not to work, I vote against him, again this does not work. I do not have the time to spend opposing government and as much as I disagree with this governments policies it allows me to have a job, house and car and enjoy myself freely without restriction. Thus I go about my business as do most other people (people as in people of all faith or not as the case may be) and live a life where I try to be morally just and fair to everyone I meet, is this not the cornerstone to any religion? I find it difficult to have a finger pointed at me for things I oppose as do Muslims. Saddam was as much the responsibility of the Islamic faith as anybody's. Aziz was a figure-head, a token gesture that the Hussain government was an "equal opportunities employer". There were many victims of Saddam Hussain and mostly people of Islamic faith. Is this justified in the Koran? Did Muslims from around the world flock to combat this injustice to their fellow men? Nope. Because at the end of the day people are too concerned with day to day issues such as if they will be able to pay their mortgage/rent, where they are going on holiday, if their kids are doing well at school etc... We all have a social responsibility, regardless of race, colour religion, country of birth etc. to live our lives in such a way that we do not harm others. This is unfortunately not followed by many of the world's leaders but the finger of blame is pointed at the masses. What can we do about this? I'm not sure. I know it's quite an introverted stance but I live my life in a morally just way and think about the consequences of my actions and treat everybody equally. If this was adopted across the world (which you religions teach) there would be an end to poverty, suffering and injustices. I think we can all agree that this will not happen though and crimes will continue to be committed in the name of the British public and in the name of Islam. EVERY DAY I ENCOUNTER POEPLE BEING RACIST AGAINST ME, TOO MANY INCIDENCES TO TELL U, BECAUSE I WEAR HIJAB THEY KNOW I AM A MUSLIM. BUT I AM DETERMINED TO PROVE THEM WRONG ABOUT ISLAM. i would like to urge every muslim person got obligations to spread the Word so my sis and bro in islam we are already weak the mujrimins have taken our wealth,health,children and all the benefits so its time before one visits death has to live something in this world that will be sadaqa for him/her.may Allah grant us mercy upon us all muslims.pls start your jihad today not in weopon but by words.asalam aleikum Imtiaz you lobotomised twat, I may well be a sad git, but you are boring & humourless.
Simple fact. I do not welcome your alien and evil religion in Britain. Call me racist. I never judge people by the colour of thier skin but over the years the total outrage of Muslims in our once great country has wore this country down. High birth rates so plenty of claiming, expensive mosques built everywhere, enormous security bill thanks to this evil religion, special commissions here there and everywhere to please your every move. You name the benefits of Muslims been here. There is NONE!!! Imtiaz, London: I may be a 'sad git', but I know what I am and not a pretender. I have faith and understanding through learning and education. I am not a sheep. A lone voice in the wilderness, better that than a real 'sad git' like you! For the record, Russ and I are two very different people from two very different walks of life and beliefs but we share the same sentiments- that is what it is all about! We all eat, shit and then die! @Geoff. Moon worshipping? You must be thinking about the Moonies - I have not seen any Muslims worship the moon - have you? Medieval - Muslims were around well before Medieval times. You must be thinking about Protestants started by the wife chopping Henry VIII. Armenians and Turks lived peacefully until secularist Turkish nationalism in the 1900s, at the encouragement by European powers as a means to destroy the Ottoman Empire. Dhimmitude is being honest, none of this pretend equality as in EU. I am a Muslim living in Britain. I felt safe here once upon a time and i did think of it as my home but now i feel lost. This isnt my home because i dont feel wanted. One saying of the prophet Muhammad (saw) comes to mind - something like 'be in this world as if you were a traveller/stranger' Thats how i feel now but i see it as a positive realization. Now i canconsentrate on really living instead of living the selfish cushy life i always had done. The problem lies with we don't understand each others culture.How's about a little ''live and let live'' instead of we hate you because we are actually hypocrits and would love to do what the brits do-we wish we didn't have to wear old sheets and grow wild beards that look untidy-we really wish we could wear trendy PRIMARK t-shirts and not look so out of place in our unhip sheets and old sandals Salam Aalaikum I am a British Muslim only b/c I carry a British passport. I love Britain b/c of it's diversity, but most of all I identify with being a Muslim, then my cultural backround. Culture gets in the way for some people, they see culture b4 they see Islam it is really so sad. We should be united as one big ummah inshAllah one day ameen. Only when you religious people get over your strange beliefs and wake up to the fact that there is no mysterious entity such as God, will the normal everyday sane people stop viewing you all as just plain wierd and scary. do u think an attack again on uk soil will spark out rage, on the streets, and will cause more problems for the muslim community, therefor the muslim community should be worried if it happens again. Not going round thinking we all hate them, 2 join and speak against terroists, not much has been said in the muslim community about that Rubina and russ sad gits Munir,
Oh and don't forget about how muslims murder muslims. Pakistan and Bangladesh in the 70's, for example.
Assalamualikum,
Munir,
to my muslim brothers and sister look after yourself and family from people like dave. dave you so stupid and weak.people like you give britain a bad name and just because i not white doesnt mean i not british @ Munir.Far be it from me to speak for the eminent Prof Dawkins, but one suspects the point, apparently in question (by some) is more likely to help him nod off than cause insomnia.
@Pat. Defender of faith? Perhaps you should raise this with staunch evolutionist like Prof. Dawkins of Oxford University. Might give him a few sleepless nights. Munir,your spurious facts on this occasion only confirm that theres good & bad on all sides.They dont make much of a point.
Charles: Thanks for your comments. Islam is a religion, a way of life for all times regardless of now or 1500 years in the past. Unfortunately those who purport to know, actually know nothing and so distort much of what is in Quran and as a result we are where we are now. Much of Islamic history and innovation has been forgotten and only murderous acts in the name of my religion remembered. Ho-Hum! Pat, most of my friends are non christian & it's the first I've heard of it. They must be clinically "sensitive". Your friends need to get out more - or perhaps return to a bartering system. Good grief !
I would like to take your attention to one seemingly small problem which may turn out to be a big one if necessary precautions are not taken. Many non-christian people that I know are not very happy using British coins carrying the letters FD which stand for Defender of Faith in Latin. Your society would perhaps start a civilized debate about this matter before it becomes a bad tool in bad hands.
Rubina: I respect you for your honesty. One of the issues often raised about Islam is that 'live and let live' is not on the menu: it is said the Koran is set meal, not a la carte. It took the Christians centuries to fight their way out of the Bible punching fundamentalist trap - I expect - and hope - Islam will do the same: save the religion from those who wish to trap and control it for their own ungodly ends. Charles: There are a few things in Islam that I have issue with. This is because I have free will and understanding through education and experience. That aside, it does not stop me from believing; and it certainly does not lead into hatred of those who do not. Live and let live; isn't that what you purport too? Giovanna, London: In response to your question- simple hypocrisy. @Giovanni. When the Jews were being massacred during the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, the Ottoman Empire provided them sanctuary. When the Romans (Europeans) sacked Jerusalem and evicted the Jews, it was Saladin who invited the Jews back. When Spain was ruled by the Arabs, the Jews refer to this as their 'Golden Age'. Pakistan has RESERVED seats in Parliament for non-Muslims - would we see that in the UK or France ...? Muslims governments have never had a holocaust or inquisition! @Samir. I suggest you use a spell checker - they are freely available - so it is disappointing that you can't make an effort to use one. Muslims are supposed to set a good example. Quick question, why do Muslims want to be able to practice their religions throughout the world without objection but Christians or other religions are not tolerated in majority Islamic countries? Can I suggest that Islam encourages oppression or is it simply hypocrisy. I'm not asking this question to be rude or anything but I want to know why Hindus/Christians are being killed/arrested in the East. I must add I support individuals rights to practice their religion without oppression. This has turned into a chat room. Munir: I have to sujest you to start your arguement from islamic point of view rather than your openion. Iman(believe)and shariah we cannot add/subtruct anything. What we can debate and discus is muamila which plays the big part of humen life,A muslim can be any race/coloure/culture from. someone don't become a muslim by a name or simply puting a scarf on head scarf is compulsory which is only one of many element of islam. However, you should say that islam is a practical and complete religion. Rubina: thanks for response. your pity is not neded but thanks. unfortunantly i feel uncultured if that means my root but i can not help that. like i say, we're all from planet earth, from the land before any faith were thought of. i have many who attend mosque who are moderates, but get on very well, i like this, its refreshing. if i dont feel strong about something thats my view and not inflicted or pressured by others. english cricket gets hyped up alot but getting better!? Rubina - ironic then that man invented religion, man claims to know what God wants, that God is said to have told at least three men what he wants, that religious zealots kill so readily in the name of God and each one claims to be godlier than the next! Eg.Islam teaches respect and tolerance for those who leave it? Kidding, right?
Charles, London: You have said "Truth is, free thought and education are religion's enemies." I disagree. Free thought and education are the enemy of man- not religion. All religions teach respect and tolerance. It is man who chooses to ignore this. This is what has happened in many so called Muslim countries. If they truly lived by Islamic Law, they would not be in the mess that they are in! @Bill. Thats the point I am making about black people who do everything to blend in with the mainstream culture ... and yet sad to say still are not accepted as being mainstream British. They are the most discriminated and disadvantaged of all non-white groups. Do you expect the other minorities to follow the lemming route? Firoz, Lancashire: I pity people like you. Do you really believe that by denying who you are or whence you came will make you more palable to to likes of the BNP? The fact that you love the dales and your local heritage does not make you any better than a believer regardless of their faith. You may despair but so do many others and yet they continue to believe! David, Leicester: You may be surprised to learn that not ALL Muslims are of Pakistani or Indian origin. Many are Anglo-Saxon. Who do you think they support- England I hope! Hello, David from Leicester - and goodbye. English cricketers have been crap for years, Shane Warne is the world's best ever bowler and if I was called up to fight Blair's war in Iraq I wouldn't go either. But I bet you that if this country was attacked and our lives, families and property were threatened you'd be very surprised who fought with whom. You may not have noticed but arabs kill arabs, muslims kill muslims, not all arabs are muslim and not all muslims are arabs. David: if i were calld up as a conscript against any country that i felt we were bullying, i would not fight and so most others incl you, thats individual rights. i have served in iraq, i had nothing against iraq, the people in basra were 90% for change and good to us. my views are the same then and now, that it was wrong to go to war and Blair (along with suicide bombers and bush) need to take responsibilty, not an officer or a 19 yr old lad who do what they are trained and told. British Muslims, which cricket team do you support? England? Pakistan? India? Says everything doesn't it?
question: Who do you think you are?
Firstly I am a Muslim and this defines a lot of my identity. However I am also British and proud to be. I like Britain and British people and I am also Iraqi because this is where I originate from. Although I've never been there I feel an attachment to it. I believe we can reconcile many aspects of our identity together. as you can see i have to say my country is the united kingdom. when i am scottish. you do not hear us chanting death to the english when they take the mickey out of us.we all contribute the same amount of money to the bbc, however only one country is serviced. get the chip off your islamic shoulders. I am proud to be a muslim. I am also happy to live in the UK as a British citezen. People in here are more tolerable than somewhere else. I can get a job, a place to sleep in peace, a place to worship Allah and if I am not working for any reason the government gives lots of support and police don't take money to visit crime victims and are not afraid any MP's to arrest any one, police and teachers don't torture people. No one can force no one to do anything unless they realy wants to.Thanks.
Munir. How many black people wear Religious garments in the street (except Rastas who are cool anyway and offend noone with thier beliefs)
@Munir - Thanks for a frank reply but i disagree. This is not a Muslim country (yet) and we have to consider this in our everyday life. Wearing traditional Muslim dress shouldn't be something to think twice about.... in an Islamic country. Over here, many, if not most people who have British heritage going back many many generations (aka Brit Nationals) see this as us trying to change thier country, and they have a point. I think we SHOULD blend in with Nation we are forcing ourselves on. Munir - and it's not about being weaker or stronger, it's about valueing and respecting others as equals. Trying to fit in is a virtuous, peaceful, civilised way of behaviour. Liberal societies welcome tolerant diversity. Regrettably, some Islamic ones do not they fear freedom of choice and belief and seek to restrict it. Changing one's mind/beliefs in some backward nations attracts the death penalty, how stone age is that? Truth is, free thought and education are religion's enemies. Munir - you suffer from a warped view of the world - a chippy victim. You might ask yourself who went to the Balkans to sort out the mess -Secular and 'Christian' nations in the main! To protect muslims! Ask yourself who was funding the muslim killers? Al Quaeda loonies and wahabbi/salafi fanatics. But I do agree that the whole area seemed full of small minded maniacs - not mainly religious tho, the whole Serb v Croat mutual hatred was the real driving force behind the break-up. @akka. Your attitude is cowardly and short-sighted. The Bosnian Muslims were the most 'integrated', both in appearance and culture - and yet they were not only massacred - but massacred for being 'Muslims'. I can understand your comments but really to hide and try to 'blend in' only makes you weaker. The black community are an example - they marry white girls, have 'english' names, drink alcohol, are part of the music/night scene and yet fare much worse then other minorities. Why do Muslims in Europe such Bosnia, Turkey, Albania not follow Islamic traditions eg hijab and not drinking? Sayyed Mudassar, Cyprus: I quote a verse from the Quran- hopefully it will help you and your family.
i am muslim and i married with chirstian girl but my family dont accept that marriage and i finish my study in cyprus and i cant go back my country and i dont want to leave my wife what can i do? should i take asylum for my wife ? i am very upset Alan - without Russia's 20 million WWII dead Hitler would have screwed the UK before the yanks got involved. That's not to say the yanks weren't a vital ingredient in victory - along with the Indians, Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians, Poles and the rest of the alliance. Exclude the overwhelming bulk of the French, they went along with Hitler. How, exactly, do you think you are superior to anyone? Give us a clue ... superman?
Alan, Bradford: Are you suggesting that you are both my superior and benefactor? Kindly enlighten me as to how you came to conclude this. Don't forget too the colonial cousins who faught in both world wars- it wasn't just Uncle Tom. Once again i was dissmayed to see asians protesting outside a school which condolese rice was visiting. Again the protestors forget that if it wasn't for the USA Britain would be ruled by hitler. The only asians allowed into western countries would be as slaves. So once again asians must be told to respect their superiors and stop being so ungrateful to their benefactors. Salaam alaikum wrwb,
Ibrahim, your name doesnt sound very British mate, are you sure you were brought up as christian and chose to become muslim? I bet you have muslim family. Anyway, whats your point? Dear Amanda, Pls dont get me wrong, The word Kuffar is actually derived from the quran which referred to the non believers [ non Muslim] by Allah swt. HAVE READ THE QURAN? I knew very well, even the muslim in Malaysia didnt like the term, because this term always referred to the colonialist and degrading word to their eyes, whereby to the muslim, it is a common word and regularly mention in the Quran. I,ve nothing against with the British since I used to study and worked in Britain. I am someone who was born in the UK who is of Irish descent,and who was formerly Christian. Having recently embraced Islam I consider myself to be both British AND Muslim. Munir - if Muslims can fit in, why is there talk of bringing Sharia law to the UK which will just alienate us, i think Islamic dress only flaunts faith, there is no need, it just makes people look down on us. We shouldnt hide our faith but just be aware of the fact this is not an Islamic country and our religion and religious laws are not the most important to everyone. Christianity is banned in some Muslim countries and punished harshly. We need less attention not more in this delicate time. Charles, dont judge the quran before u read it and understand it. i am a muslim girl and happy with deen. if us muslim women are not complain but our equal right, who are you to say 'The Koran does not seem to value women as equals' Charles: The fact that I believe is not an excuse. I'm not imposing my views on anyone. Each to their own and all that. A believer is a believer and the need to justify is not required. Not the attitude of Mr. Hussain who implys that this lady and this young girl must be telling whoppers and says he is "sure" the imman gave the right advice.
Munir,only veggies ? Not "whites" ?
R- I submitted a bunch of arguments-you ignored them all. Typical. When arguing with believers they always resort to 'I believe': that is not an argument but an excuse to avoid the questions. You were wrong about images of Mohammed and you wrong about this. Try opening yourself to the arguments I offered up. I say repeatedly I don't care what you wear but I DO question why you feel the need to flaunt rather than quietly believe. See Islamfortoday etc below. Rub-my response to you got zapped. The Koran does not seem to value women as equals. Your cheap shot re control was just that. I think ALL in your face religious types are .. odd. I don't distinguish between Hasidic, Orange Order, Hari Krishna, Druid dress etc. Religious dress worn by ordinary people as opposed to 'preists' is intentionally isolationist. Worn to make a cheap holier than though point?? It's not required by god or to be a believer. It's a kind of idolatry in/of itself.SAD Munir - suggest you read Sardar & Wyn Davies on Sharia in their guide to Islam. You seem not to understand the complexities. Given your view that 'whites' would be astonished to find there are 'white' Muslims you come across as a blinkered, small minded, racist. People like you ARE the problem, not Islam. To Rosemary Millard:
@Rosemary. The best is to meet some knwoledgeable Islamic sisters who can act as a 'buddy'. You learn best from example - not from instruction. They may be lacking in your area - if so you can join the ISB or similar to meet others. @Charles. You may be shocked to know that Islam and Sharia law are one and the same. Sharia law is the backbone of an Islamic society. - it covers aspects such as marriage, divorce, inheritance and trade. To suggest that Muslims should disband Sharia as a means of reclaiming Islam from the extremists is like telling Blair to ignore the electorate, senior civil servants, Chiefs of Staff, and instead pray to God in the name of democracy. Rosemary, East Sussex, UK: May I suggest that you read the Quran and the Hadith and aquire knowledge through your own understanding instead of relying on someone elses'. Munir, re hijab & "titillation" - are you implying that the absence of hijab leads you to being titillated, & thus losing self control ?? Have my last responses to Rubina quoting Muhammed's view on women been edited out? Not much equality there. @Russ. Veggies at a touch ... but they don't fit in either do they?
Yes - Islam considers all humans sons of Adam and does not distinctions between poeple on the grounds of race. Race has no genetic distinction - it is more a psycho-social phenomena. Muslims can be white. However, many white Britons would be astonished that a Muslim can be white and a non-Arab and prefer not to talk about it (eg. Yvonne Ridley). im an engish woman i have just married a muslimman.what are the rules of the woman when she marries a muslim man. @Munir, what an interesting & revealing selection of types you have linked together...Presumably theres none in the list that you'd willingly associate with ? Munir: Some of your comments are crass. You may be surprised to learn that Muslims can be white! It is not a 'brown' religion. They can also be vegetarians. Some Muslims smoke and drink; some use illicit substances too. Some are gay and others frequent night-clubs. Once again you have shown yourself to be biggoted and racist! Charles: I am equal to man both in this world and in the hereafter. The fact I wear hijab does not mean that I am subserviant to man. I wear hijab out of my own choice; I have not been dictated to! Strict Jewish women wear wigs- why? Some Christian women wear scarves too- why? Why such a big deal about Muslim women? You are a man and you are suggesting I don't wear hijab- why? Another man trying to control women perhaps???? Munir-You might not like what I say but do not twist it. Putting arguments I did not project forwards, claiming they are mine and then attacking them is the trick of the charlatan. Read what I say more closely. My answers to your questions are in my posts. Your misconceptions, prejudices and racist assumptions speak for themselves. It seems to me what you don't like are my ACTUAL arguments as you do not seek to adddress them. Typical. Islamfor today says women should not dress to fit in! @Mike. Can anyone show me any Muslim country which does not suffer from intimidation (Palestine), threats (Iran), propping up of dictatorships (Uzbekistan, Pakistan) and corrupt regimes (Egypt), and bombings (Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, (Iran)), and prevented from technological development because of USA/Western intereference? It is the West which interferes to prevent unity and peace among Muslim nations by fostering Nationalism. @Charles. Are you implying that Muslims don't 'fit into society'? What society do you refer to? Would Mulsims fit in more if they were gay, alcoholics, drug users, vegetarians, smokers, night-clubbers and pub-crawlers - and white? Society is alsways changing and some are losers who don't like it.
Can anyone show where in the World of Islam or elsewhere there is Peace with Islam? @Charles. Don't you believe that people can clothe themselves as they wish? Are you that hostile to the clothing of nuns, or to the images/statues representing the Virgin Mary in Catholic churches - or only to Muslims? Oh and don't think hijab means dressing drably - the hijab is a cover for the real fashion which is not meant to titillate those who they are not meant to - including you Charles :) Rubina-all generation's fear the future. Islam has to be reclaimed by believers from the deadly conflict-Bush/Bin Laden-have engineered. Only Muslim women can do this. While they bend to the male there is no hope. Subservient dress, unequal rights, Sharia law - all control women. A scarf doesn't make a believer it controls the wearer. Weak men fear liberated women and this lies at the root of the dress code. Dispose of the restraints be modest and proclaim your belief as an intelligent EQUAL. Charles: Fair point! Religion regardless of your beliefs is between you and your god; I can't stand those who propogate self righteousness over other more important issues. The site you have quoted was written by a man; a man who misunderstands! I agree all religions are manipulated for political reasons. Again, I fear for our future; our children! 5. The design of the clothing must not resemble the clothing of the non believing women. 6. The design must not consist of bold designs which attract attention. 7. Clothing should not be worn for the sole purpose of gaining reputation or increasing one's status in society.
Rubina-Head scarves-no problem per se. But worn for reasons of propaganda, submission to a self-serving male view of God, to boast of piety, as a tribal badge, to intimidate other believers and non-believers? To be free? HA! Some are so pious as to live as monks/nuns. Some renounce life, body & speech or sit on poles for God! Some are so heavenly minded as to be of no earthly use. Even so, feel free. But is God or MAN the insecure control freak? Is God ashamed of his design? Niqab/burka. Charles: If you saw me walking down the street (remind you of 60s soul ballard??), you wouldn't question my identity were it not for my head scarf. The fact I wear a scarf and swear like a trooper does not make me any better or worse than the person next to me regardless of their faith. Read all my postings on here; you'll find we are both on the same wave length.
Saira Iqbal,you rightly said 'there is a difference between freedom of speech and insulting someones true beliefs and religion.' Why then do you go on to say 'islam is the only true religion.'You have just insulted all those who don't follow Islam.Why can't you just be happy to be Muslim, why do you have to do others' beliefs down to make yours appear stronger, you have infact made yourself look weak.Islam is peaceful and tolerant, you can't be Muslim as you haven't projected these values.
i am also very fearful that the extremism shown by certain factions of the community will bring about the upsurge of support of the far right "it is happening" believe me i see it in pubs which of couse you do not use but are as big a breeding ground as rougue mosques for muslim far right sympethysers this could be the next iberia if we all put aside this hate the most succesful country in the world for all to share equally we have to promote tolerence and co-operation ps i am pagan but love you i would like to thank you so much for exposing the real side of muslims during the protests regarding the so called cartoons it has certainly opened my eyes about tolerence and understanding, i for one have not seen the cartoons, but any dipiction in animated form of any god is fiction and of the mind of the perpitrater how on earth can people be killed and people called to execution for this crap we dont even kill murderers. "maybe we should all go back to the roman gods zuess, mars etc: The overwhelming majority of the world's Muslims do not dress like arabs or poor Pakistani tribesmen. Does that make them any less religious or less 'Muslim'? British clothes in India were specially designed for the heat - shorts and pith hats. Tribal is obviously unsuitable. I've seen men wearing sandals in the snow! How dumb is that? Rubina - hijab means dressing modestly, why not? Headscarves? The Queen wears those. How yesterday she is - a fifties housewife! Why wear tribal/arab/desert dress, why not invent a modern fashion? The silly hatted Brits were NOT trying to fit in! That was the point. NO BRIT wears such silly hats in the UK and NEVER has. True believers should never flaunt their beliefs or claim to be holier or more sincere because of what they wear. Belief has no uniform. It's about men's fear of women! our Prophet(PBUH)said“Jibreel kept on enjoining the good treatment of neighbours to such an extent that I
I am jordanian-british, jordanian and british when it comes to nationality,Islam is my religion. proud to live in England which I refer as home when elsewhere.my loyality is for England becuase it opened its arms wide for me to work,live,be safe,and get step closer toward my PHD which will be my contribution to say thanks.remember these values which is taken for granted is missing in many parts of the world. at the same time i worship Allah following his commands to the best of my ability. Charles: During British rule in India and Africa, The British did not conform to the 'native' way. They continued dress as they did in England, despite sweltering temperatures. By virtue of that alone, surely people who come here should continue to dress as they wish. Jewish women wear wigs and their men wear yarmulkes. Sikh men wear turbans as do some of their women. Some Christian ladies cover their heads with scraves. Why is it such a huge deal if Muslim women wear hijab? People who want to fit into a society try to go along with it. People who don't insist on standing out to make a point. One may be be religious without wearing God on one's sleeve. Women may dress modestly without looking as if they just blew in from the desert or some far flung tribal region. Why can't today's people design fashion for this country today? What would they think if each European nation resorted to their centuries old national costume as everyday dress? They'd laugh! our religion islam is not about racism or fighting but it is about following in the way of our prophets before us and worshipping the only god there is allah (swt) our religion is unique the only religion to follow what is based in the holy quran, the only book which has not been changed. there is a difference between freedom of speech and insulting someones true beliefs and religion. islam is the only true religion. Bumps: I wear black and cover my face because my family require me to, out of respect for my faith. As a non-muslim it has been very enlightening in reading the responses of muslims and it has helped me to understand the anger that the danish cartoons have caused.It was insensitive to print these cartoons and people in positions of power should know better. However I am also worried about certain emerging views that Europe is full of neo nazis that are hell bent on a second holocaust. I think such views are dangerous and will lead to greater divisions and hatred between our two cultures Gordy, Stirling: Indeed we are; whether we call the 'invisible being' Yahweh, God, or Allah- He truly is the same. Pity most of us can't see that! Rubina London, UK say ‘The ignorant have done more damage to Islam than the cartoons ever could.‘ Why are so many of our Imams ignorant? Why are so many of the faithful so easily led to violence? My Allah show us how to be true Muslims. 'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.' Only true Muslims can see we must show kindness and mercy to those in the West who have no understanding. The ignorant Imams, and there appear to be a great many, insult Allah in ratings and ravings. A friend recently asked me what my opinion was of the difference between Muslims, Catholics, Jews, and Protestants etc etc.
i am against to the which ducth people made a cartoon about our mean whole muslim religions it a shame this is not good 4 u whole country so pls 4 god shake dont show this picture in media pls pls
Rubina - I fear you are mistaken about picutres of the Prophet - search for 'Mohammed image archive' and you will find many old examples of Persian depictions. It is the source the BBC Newsnight used. But be warned: scrolling down too far will reveal vile images. The ban is more of a Salafi/Wahabbi extremist thing which they are trying to enforce on everone else in their desire to pick a fight with the West and gain power over the peaceful Islam. Bumps, London: I'm a muslim and have no idea as to why some muslim people wear black particularly in hot countries. However, think a little laterally and you'll find that convection currents keeps those very same people cool regardless of the amount of heat absorbed. In an article in the newspaper, I came to find Muslims all over the world venting anger over cartoons. Some people think its just freedom of speech, but others just think its plain rude. White people vent their anger over what some colored people do, but not all. Yes, some colored people have done bad things (Like Saddam) but the others are just normal, average people who tend to have a darker shade of skin. This is racism through the media, which isn’t right even if it is just freedom of speech. Many people find racism hurtful, even if it isn’t clear. Racism is hidden in many forms, the media, what people say, and what people do. Racism is basically hidden messages waiting to be decoded, and waiting to hurt someone. On a re read of russ nass comments, I realise he speaks sense. Even if I disagree with you I respect your free speech. Keep up the good work ! Sumaiyas not the only one with someone using her name to post comments on the forum. I too have had it done. Quite funny tho' !
Why do islamic people dress in black seeing as they come from a warm country, Why a black flag, why hide their faces, do they not think God made light and colour for people to enjoy, did God not give them hair on their heads for adornment, God made life to enjoy not to look like you are in mourning, light was born out of the blackness. Imran, clearly you spend too much time reading me & have nothing better to comment on, you poor humourless person. Go blow your nose, dry your eyes & get into issues. I am a sad idiot. I have nothing better to do but sit all day on this forum. Someone is using my name and posting their comments. Whoever it is I request them to stop because it is unfair since people will be thinking they are my opinions. Kindly understand. Mary, Kent: You have hit the nail on the head. Most muslims believe that only they can be muslim for the colour of their skin. How wrong are they. They have ignored a very important scripture regarding race, colour and creed. This is also missed when it comes to nationality and their belfiefs; the two can and do go hand in hand. Perhaps fortunately those who purport to know are the ones who really do not! I'd rather be on the dark side than on the (un)enlightened side! A basic fact: Islam does not allow the depiction of any of the Prophets. I find people wearing t-shirts with 'Jesus is a woman' extremely offensive. If you want to make cartoons with a religious conotation depict a religious leader, for example an imam, a priest, or a rabbi. BUT not a prophet. People have said that muslims draw cartoons too; of course they do. But of whom exactly? Correct me if I'm wrong (and I hold my hands up here), they will not be of prophets. Double standards too prevail. I'll sell drugs, upset those who have lost loved ones due crimes against humanity, and call for all infidels to be murdered. But you can't say anything to me as you might infringe my human rights. That is not what Islam advocates and the quicker you realise this the better. Furthermore, dialogue not a call to arms makes head-way. The Prophet above else all advocated that; pity those who cry out for blood in His name cannot see the wood for the trees. Why burn flags and torch buildings. Cannot one be Danish and be Mulsim at the same time? Ask those that are. Once again, pity our children. We are not leaving them a greatr legacy...
Once again the ignorant have done more damage to Islam than the cartoons ever could. I have seen a few of the cartoons and from what I can see there is no direct indication to the Prophet. I am not Danish and so cannot say what was written along side them. However, the cartoons are just cartoons; they could be of me or you... I don't know. Either that or I have missed something really big here. That aside no prophets should be vilified; either Jew, Christian or Muslim. Who am i ?.Who knows.Who cares.The muslims of England have shamed themselves this week.Why carry out your demonstrations on the streets of London and not that of denmark ?.How more tolerant can we be towards you ? Who do I think I am?
ASSALAMUALAYKUM. Talk about over reacting. My muslim brothers should be ashamed of their selves. The british police should be shamed of their selves as well. Only in England could someone dress as a suicide bomber in the city where such attrocities have only recently been perpetrated and the police be too afraid to arrest them. The message has now been received loud and clear, Muslims can do anything they want because they have special dispensation from the police. dear sisters
It's not true that everything is judged according christian values. Western countries are secular countries: there is NO space for religion in the State either christian or other faiths. We achieved this by spilling tons of blood in many bitter wars against christian religion in particular in the past. Therefore, in case of muslims, there is NO way they can be loyal to the British state and their religion at same time. So, why should we tolerate their intolerance in our own country??? Russ nass, you sad person. You are really polluting this forum. You might as well label this forum as yours. Surely you have nothing better to do. And your comments are bulshit! Abdisalam Yusuf, London: Of course they can. You only have to read the scripture.
What hurts Islam most a few drawings or the lunatic "muslims" in London who carry signs saying 9/11 to Europe, behead non muslims, 7/7 in Denmark etc etc. I thought Islam was a peaceful religion? I also did not see any muslims on tv taking a strong distance from this call to murder demonstration, which leads me to believe that most muslims agree with this call to murder and violence. I can number ancestors from Belgium, Italy and Ireland. I consider myself English. I was born here the same as many other people. Why then British Asian, Black British etc? This immediately creates different tribes within the land and history teaches, even very recently that conflicts arise. I have friends from many backgrounds. If you're born here you're English - surely. I decided to worship God without religion and I conflict with no one. Remember - a soul has no colour or religion For the record, I'm white, English and not a Christian though I believe God can work through any one of us. The concept of a so-called 'British' culture, having its origins at some indeterminate point in the past of these islands, is a myth. 'Culture' is organic and a healthy culture is responsive to changing circumstances. The so-called "Anglo-Saxons" and, yes, some Muslims too, should recognize that in a global society our traditions and beliefs are open to question and criticism. Peace. Michael in Paris - Like its any different for a Christian or "westerner" in a Muslim country !
This is mainly 2 ppl lyk'joshua dave, toronto, Canada' i aint gonna steriotype other religions lyk joshua here did. im a proud muslim nd honestly i gotta say dat muslims are not terroiests, da ppl dat wer envovled in the sep 11 event was a miss guided action and all muslims condoned it!!! AS 4 u joshua ur becoming one of those ppl dat create hatred nd this message is comin from a young and proud muslim whose still learning and practising my faith. i dont judge a book by its cover u shud no 2... Munir: Why did start wearing hijab? Nothing to do with age or family. The Angel Gabriel appeared to me in a vision and the rest is history! As a non-muslim I feel compelled to
it is difficult to be a muslim in a western european country,
I'm Muslim, when it comes to religion and I'm a British when it comes to nationality. But any way I disagree with the question itself in the first place. The question is wrong absolutely wrong because there is no requirement to be a certain religion for Britishness. However I’m MA student and I’m doing Essay about whether the Muslims can be loyal to the British state and their religion at same time? So please forward your ideas. Salaaaaaaaaaaam @Rubina. Why did you start to wear Hijab? Was it your age of maturity or was it that your family background did not and you were later enlightened enough to take the plunge? Nadem,its right for people to boycott whatever they like.I believe that people are entitled to be offended by whatever they like too,but we must beware of any move to legislate (ban) due to various "sensitivities" (a misnomer if ever there was one).This would be a move toward a non secular state,& against free expression.
Before we start introducing other languages to the NC, let's try and teach our children the basics of English grammar first; and not be content with 'street' talk.
It is all about education and evolution. Who says you can't be a Muslim and live in Britain? I am a product of the 60s- born and bred in this great counrty. Most of my friends are white Christian. Prejudices arise from ignorance. The fact that you mix with non-Muslims does not mean that you are not Muslim. Your faith is between you and God- no one else. Assimilate. When I first wore hijab, it was only Muslims that questioned it. Look to a better future for our children; and I speak as a parent. Iftikar - I'd just like to ask if you have any other grand schemes that could burn away millions of British taxpayers money. We already pour billions into sustaining asylum seekers and immigrants - many of them Muslim - why on earth should we be paying to upset the status quo further by encouraging languages from countries that have scant ties to us? European languages are fine - they are our main trading partners/tourists. Arabic or Urdu joining French on the National curriculum? Fantasy. Im a German Muslim..
Amanda: Well said. Have said it before and will say it again. Boring does not make the headlines, sensationalism does!
You are all missing the point. It is the ruling establishment who by inventing a never ending stream of new laws, which only serve to cause friction in the community, with the aim of destroying the GB and other european countries. This country is been taken for a ride, by whom all will say, by the non British media who claim to be British but are owned by foriegn fanatics who are playing the the race card ("trev") country for their NOT our gain. So simply leave, for what religion are you, not a Christian for one. You may claim to be but your interest is not one of the UK. Your lot (copeland or maxwell) are in for some serious revenge. No no no non ther is big then this isser bro&sist issue of our Rasool Allah
iam muslim in Britain Its hard to be British and muslim when you dont go out, drink, or do certain things that are linked with British culture. But you're muslim peers, friends, families etc. dont regard you 'as islamic' as they are. So who do you fit in with? What are you? For me British culture is about diversity, people from varied backgrounds. Thats my experience, most of the people i seem to meet and get on well with have lived in other places aswell as britain. I think its important to try to be muslim and british simultaneously, but it is a struggle. Especially when its muslims conforming to already existing british ideals. For true equality, everyone needs to compromise and share something in common, otherwise there will always be a heirarchy. As a Muslim i have completely failed to understand the philosphy of these bunch of so called mullahs i dont comprehend which world they live in and which islam they preach. they are the real enemy. whats difficult for them to see things postively and accept the truth and facts. we need to move with the pace of time in this world with this time. Gods world mean evolution and change. religions are for lightening not for putting people in darkness. religions reflect knowledge not the ignorance. I feel I am a British Muslim. My parents & husband are from Bangladesh.I don't feel like I am a Bangladeshi, as I feel my religion is an identity in itself. I am British as I am born in the UK & proud to be part of a multi-cultural Britain. While I was at university/following graduation I would relate to Bangladesh as home. However,since becoming a mother I started to learn & follow Islam to the best I can. My identity now is as a Muslim British & would like my daughter to think likewise. Sumaiya,I'll be interested to hear the reactions if only one of either Hamza or Griffins trials results in a conviction...I suspect that even without full transcripts of the trials people will be very opinionated...& are probably already preparing their comments for all eventualities.
One thing of note with Hamza & Griffin is that they're both using "I'm only quoting from the Quran" in their defence... Munir,re Rubina - UNBELIEVABLE ! Pot calling the kettle black or what ! How many people have to call you racist before you're honest enough to admit it, or bright enough to see it ? You speak as one with a chain of Harry Ramsdens on his shoulders & the aplomb of a dissembling Alf Garnett.One only has to trawl through these threads to see where you're at.Palpable to the max. Munir: Have you actually read and taken in what I have written in these threads?
Munir, you never cease to amaze me.Firstly, you have made so many racist insinuations, on both boards, I can't put them all down.The fact that you don't realise this is worrying.Secondly, these boards are a form of correspondance so your point is void. I think Rubina is 100% right about you and from reading her posts I doubt that she is a timid Muslim at all. In fact, I would say she is much more true to her Islamic faith than you are, you are too angry, hateful and bitter! Aziz Mohamad, please define exactly what you mean by 'British kuffar' because if it means what I think it means, you are being racist and disrespectful.Please also remember that people who aren't Muslim are no worse or better than Muslims.There are a lot of things wrong in Islamic countries as in non-Islamic countries. I am 60 years of age and studied religeons of different nations really wanting to believe but found nothing but violence and broken promises, man and his science has made the world a better place not god in any of his forms, I am so disapointed to have come to this truth but it is the truth, religion must be banished to bring peace, the whole world needs to pool its money for the good of all men, this is the proper way, God is a tyrant no different to earth dictaters. My heart is broken. Labony, many people of many races and religions are made to suffer all over the world,why just feel sickened by Muslim victims?While there is much ignorance about Islam in the world portrayed by non-Muslims,false ideas about Islam have been portrayed often by the very people who profess to be Muslim. By blowing people up and insinuating that they want to destroy the West they are traitors to their faith and project a violent image of Islam, just as George Bush and Tony Blair do with theirs. As much as I hate what the Israelis have done and are doing to the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs I fear for the peace of the world even more since Hamas's election victory and the Iranian president's diatribe against much of the Western World. I fear that the agression and violence that they stand for will only further perpetuate the myth that Muslim's are all violent and encourage several Western governments to also pursue their aggressive stances. as a citizen of the country, the muslim should be classified as a British no matter where they come from @ origin but as a race they should be identified based on their rigin such as Malay, Arab , Tamil, Pathan etc. But to differenciate between British Kuffar and Muslim, therefore we should be known as a British Muslim rather than British of Malay origin or Pathan, Tamil etc. Brtish Muslim is more appropriate. Has Sumaiya's epic blocked up the forum ?
ASSALAMUALAYKUM. I will be interested to see if Nick Griffin & Abu Hamzah are found guilty of the same crime. *Rubina: This forum is not a place to label people you have never met or corresponded with. Please enlighten me as to why you put the label 'racist' and 'sick ideologies'. I have not posted anything which espoused either an ideology or indeed anything which portrays a view that inherent human abilities are race-based. The references to colour relate to the predominant culture of that particular race. From your posts - I guess you are one of the timid Muslims who are scared of wearing Hijab? both me and my family consider ourselves british muslims, I would like to be understanding of islam in the UK. However the actions of numerous suicide bombers, the words of 'british' cleric Abu Hamza and his followers, and some of the comments here do not allow me to do so. Sadly looking at the evidence i have to conclude islam is violent and intolerant and that many of the 'british muslims' in fact despise britain. I fear for the future of my country and feel its culture / history is being destroyed. I am not British nor Muslim, but I can't believe Sumaiya Zabwala's words. Haven't you heard about the Muslim riots in Alexandria against the Copts? And have you not heard about thousands decapitated in the Spanish city of Toledo after the city rioted against Muslim rule in the VIII century? Even Mohammed used force against the Bani Quraiza, have you even read the Koran? Wake up to reality! Sumaiya,aside from the inevitable history debate arising from your comments,where we all selectively admit & deny the various failings & nasties perpetrated by our ancestors,have you travelled much & do you know many Iraqis?
Question: Why is it that some us us are limited to 500 characters, but others have the facility to write their own version of 'War and Peace'?
Another epic from Sumaiya to follow soon....
AA.being a british muslim means nothing to me.The idea that all muslims are 'terroists' meaning muslim brothers and sisters are being made to suffer sickens me. It is the ignorance in this world that has caused this, because if they knew anything about islam they would know islam forbids this. I pray Allah (swt) gives the oppressed muslims strength and courage and Insha Allah may we all be united to eradicate these false ideas portrayed about muslims. Islam is all about peace. The greeting 'Assalamualaykum' that Muslims welcome each other with means 'May peace be upon you' So how can one say that Islam does not allow us to live in peace when 'peace' is the root of Islam. It is liked and stresed in Islam to greet each other in the aforesaid manner.
To afzaal m. Over 1 million asians are here illegally and it is they who must be legally removed. The Asians (incl. Chinese) don't come to the UK wearing military uniform or bearing weapons - unlike British (Military) Rule in India. Also, the British presence in India did not contribute an iota to the well-being of the population - all the Doctors were still Indian ....lol Munir: I fear that you are a racist. People like you and Mike should stand shoulder to shoulder as you share the same sick views and hold dear the same sick ideologies. Rubina,with respect the same scientific discoveries have,to most,quashed any credible arguments about the creation - not GW Bush tho',Id accept.I dont know about the Quran,but if I relied on the Bible for scientific evidence,I'd believe the earth revolved around the sun & was the centre of the universe.It all seems a bit of a trip towards fundamentalism.Scarey - as are efforts to get it on the curriculum in the USA - where for once theyre getting it right& keeping it out.Its faith,not science. Munir,to develop further I would suggest you study the wisdom & teachings of Alf Garnett.
Mike, United Kingdom.
well said john, leeds. to John-A point note is that muslims in the UK are here legally. The British occupied India by illegal force (c.f. Iraq). Also muslims work for the good of all not just a select section of the population. The "struggle to remove Asians from Britain must be respected" is a racist and criminal view and threrefore illegal, there the courts are the place to fight such views. John, Leeds: You've missed a vital point. The British ruled over India; it was their laws in force. Asians do not rule in the UK; they comprise a very small minority of the population. The Indians, like many other colonial cousins fought for independence. Australia wants independence too. What of that? to john,leeds; why do you feel the need to remove asians from britain. To Afzaal m. If everyone idolizes Ghandi for his peaceful struggle to remove the British from India. Then surely my struggle to remove Asians from Britain must be respected. Nikki: I mis-spelled your name too. Frankly, I don't like to type- I'm from a generation where we were taught to write using proper ink pens!
Nikki: I totally agree with your point re. marriage. Unfortunately, people make these rules. I merely citied what Islam advocates.
@Nikki. "Indian/Hindu kids do better" - well they certainly do better than whit kids. So perhaps the Indians are better matched to a British identity than white kids? nicole khan i am interested in seeing your website, what is the address. maria Those muslims who still trust british politicians to "be supportive" of islam or any other liberating movement must learn from the war papers recently released. They clearly show that even though Gandhi was "peaceful" in his struggle to remove the British, Churchill would still be an obscurant an prepared tolethim die. Check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4573152.stm We must be alert to what politicians say about us in public and private. hello n happy new year......
Irfan says no one is asking foreigners in muslim countries to leave. Well that's maybe because they aren't arrogant and cause the majority of the crime. Also they may not be flooded by immigrants that don't respect the host culture and want to change the host countries customs and way of life that it's had for centuries. Irfan
Steve, Bristol, United Kingdom
Rubina,re literacy with the indigous population I think many will have examples that both back & contradict your experience.I certainly do (some are in these threads).
To Rubina - to your second point. Well, no matter what the requirement is in Islam for a woman to convert before marriage to a Muslim - the stark reality is that many men/extended families will not countenance marriage to an "infidel". They seem happy if the prospective bride/daughterinlaw goes through the motions of a conversion to Islam, even if it just means a box she can tick on an official form, rather than a wholehearted spiritual shift. It's utterly crazy but it goes on. of English pulling down the statistics still further. In short the umbrella term of "immigrants" doesn't tell the whole story. Some immigrant groups enrich Britain more than others. The reason why Indian/Hindu kids do so well is probably down to aspects of their culture fitting seamlessly in with ours, their acceptance of Britain as she is and no axe of bitterness to grind against us. Afro-Caribbeans. There are many reasons why these statistics fall as they do, some social, some the fault of culture or religion. A factor in the poor showing of Muslim children is partly due to religious "sensitivities" clouding the spirit of education (science can be a problem for people clinging to the authenticity of a book written 1400 years ago) a lack of role models and also because of the never-ending procession of new arrivals to these shores many of whom are also Muslim, their lack Rubina - oh dear, you seem to rather disprove your lofty theories by your errors in spelling. Indigenous and requirement are not really so difficult to fathom. I can only presume that "teaching children in secondary education" is a term wildly open to misinterpretation. But let's cut to the chase. Firstly, statistics have shown time and time again that the high-scoring immigrants happen to be Indian/Hindu children. Next are us "natives". Muslim children generally do just a little better than Muslims need not worry, nor should any other refugee. Britain will be handed to them on a silver platter by all the pc do-gooders in a short while. Then they can do with this sad country what they will. Niiki, Hampshire: Kindly note there is no pre-requisite requirment in Islam that a woman must be a muslim to marry a Muslim man. Our friend Amanda is proof of this.
To Nicole Khan - 1) You have interesting grammar for an English person. 2)Did you convert spiritually to Islam before you met your husband, or was your conversion merely done in order to secure marriage to him? hi im nicole i convert to islam i regard myself as a british muslim, and so do my kids , my husband was born here but is pakistani but he see's himself as a british born muslim , but what i would like to say is that i have an islamic website, and the negative feed back im getting from british none muslims is unreal i cannot belive what this hatred is like, its horrid to see and hear, i realy fear for my children. nicole khan Islam teaches us all to be tolerant of others. Most of us are still bound by our cultural ideologies and are less tolerant of those who are not the same as us. We all share the same greeting but choose to distinguish by race, colour and creed. Let's sort ourselves out first and then try to educate others. Some of you will understand what I'm saying; but for the most a void will be met.
Wishing you all health, wealth and happiness for the New Year.
Roderic-Unfortunately the countries listed below have to keep quiet for fear of any sort of retribution. The US blatantly controls the world in terms of trade and politics and that scares people.As Bush said 'you are either with us or against us', and woe betide anyone who objects to their actions!!It is very sad that it has come to one country bullying the whole world.I am proud to be British but I can't stand Blair or Bush.OOps,I'll expect the police round for that comment! Roderic - As a Christian in Britain,and fellow human being, I agree wholeheartedly with your comment.At the moment the US & UK governments are doing to people what they say they are fighting against, a bunch of hypocrites is what they are. They are no different to terrorists, both are intent on blowing up people and destroying the world and between they seem to be doing this perfectly! As a Muslim in Britain, I am concerned that, with all this justifiable criticism directed day after day at the Bush administration in America over the practice of "extraordinary rendition", we have yet to hear a single expression of shock or anger on the part of the Muslim-led governments of Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Syria at repeated allegations that the primary reason for the CIA taking suspects to those countries is for their robust interrogation techniques, known in Europe as "torture". Irfan-there is no justification for killing anyone, wherever they come from and for whatever they believe.Iraqis don't deserve to die just as those people on July 7th didn't deserve to die.By the way did you not notice the British protesters who took to the streets against the Iraq war?Please tell me why you live in a country whose inhabitants you seem to condone killing, calling it retaliation?I hope you were including the Iraqi children who were gassed by Saddam in your comment too? Enver - You are wrong, you don't have to be the same religion as someone in order to understand how they may feel, you only have to be human. Irfan - you said 'Don't you infidels feel anything....'I am not an infidel, thank you, and how dare you assume that just because someone isn't Muslim that they don't feel for other human beings. I feel incredibly sad and outraged at anyone's death, regardless of their religion/race, as do many people in Britain, which is why so much money is raised for causes overseas, think red nose day, Tsunami relief, Live Aid etc.Your 'them & us' attitude goes no way to a conduicive & peaceful living. Matt: What part of London do you live in? The East Europeans have taken over my part of West London; and they appear to be just as segregated as other communities that thrive in this beautiful land of ours. Infact you wouldn't even question their faith because they are white; perhaps that is why they haven't got a mention in your contribution. Not all Asians are Muslim! @MR ANGLO-SAXON. If you feel more Anglo-saxon that British please go back to Germany. One last thought, im tired of hearing that the British Empire is the sentiment of the worlds problems, how about the Roman Empire it lasted almost a 1000 years and battered its way through many muslim countries, I didnt see Muslims lining up for Italy before the Iraq invasion, so why is it so prevalent that Britain should pay for its conquering.?? please tell me why? Im not racist but i just want to stand up for Britain, its been my home for my entire life, its changed dramatically and I think the average working class person is feeling like a 2nd class citizen. And as the tide remains as it is, and wealth slips into either generative born British immigrants, or new arrivals, more people will turn to more drastic party initiatives to try to stop the rot. Its a sad fact but a true one. Who else has a policy for standing up for the British, it seems only BNP. will be ignorant until its too late. We can all surely see integration is not easy, maybe its impossible, i think soem hardline policies must be adopted to reverse the current state of play. Im not saying racist fascist policies, but some kind of security given that British culture, peoples can flourish as needs be to sustain its own identity. I cant see if I was in any muslim country and I found something offensive(a flag(st george X), a cartoon char(piglet), they wouldnt pander and remove it. I have to speak out, I read an interesting article about what 'Meccan' means. Have aread yourselves. I think Britain is under siege, British people will be a minority in their own country by 2050 according to predicted birth trends. All civil services are being front lined by asian staff, TV shows an unbalanced amount of ethnic people to the proportion of us indigneous Britains, all shops(where I live anyway) seem to have been gradually swept into Asian ownership. Despite this the average Brit Alex: I think perhaps you are confusing English culture with British culture. British culture is a melting pot of all those that have the UK their home, regardless of where they have come from.
Irfan,all fair points but you missed out mentioning the Kurds in your list of suffering...Lets hear some Iraqi viewpoints !
S.Aleykum I hope that you are fine I just wanted to say whithout be muslim you can not feel those feels that we are feeling I hope to feel all the world to be Muslim have a nice day . I wonder if Mr ANGLO-SAXON is trying to be posh with his double-barrelled name? Or is he too scared to disclose his non-English name to this thread. The real Anglo-Saxons are still in Germany .... Re ANGLO-SAXON, United Kingdom" you are not even from this country, you are invaders from Scandinavia, so YOU go back "home" if you really know where you come from, me I am part of the ancient Britons, LONG BEFORE you butcherd your way in her. So GET OUT!! BULLDOG? MUSLIMS MAY PER YOU BLEW UP CHILDREN IN LONDON, BUT DONT YOU INFIDELS FEEL ANYTHING ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF CHILDRENS KILLED IN IRAQ.(WHICH WAS DONE WELL BEFORE THE ATTACK 7TH JULY) SURELY THIS SEEMS LIKE A RELATALIATION! BUT WHO WILL EVER KNOW WHO WAS REALLY BEHIND THE SCENES! ANGLO!If you were born here it doesn't give you the right to impose your foreign culture on Britain as our culture has been here long before yours.
ANGLO!If you don't agree with British values don't live here. The British were here long before you were and your family.
ANGLO-SAXON, United Kingdom
your website is awsome! it has every thing anybody needs! thanks! Anglo-saxon, Thats where ur wrong, many of the "immigrants" as u like to put it came from India, Bangladesh to fight for Britain during the world wars!! And many died also like ur ancestors!!!!!!!! Russ: Drake may have been a local hero, but never the less he was still a murdering pirate!
Multiculturalism only works when everyone shows tolerance and not only the host country. And even then I doubt it is all that good an idea. I fear that British culture will be wiped out in the coming years as the Government panders to all other cultures and abandons its original children. I am not racist in the slightest but I feel that all cultures should accept the British way of life first and build their cultural identity around it. It is this refusal by some cultures to acknowledge British culture that upsets and infuriates so many.
The past Kings and Queens of England must be spinning in their graves over the demise of our English heritage. We are expected to welcome these people into our country and look after them yet we treat our own like second class people. I think the true British would like to have their country back.
Asif, to go further I refer to the point made by James Jackson below - would you think me racist if I said that I would side with fellow "whites" soley on the basis that they're white ? Whats the difference between that & Muslims siding with Muslims soley on the basis they're Muslim ?? Its all "ISMS" mate. Decent people are decent people & thats all there is to it. I can make decisions without thinking in binary, geddit ? Rubina,whats wrong with poor old Drake ? He was just a man of his time - & at least SOME of the natives liked him...Which is more than can be said about the Catholic inspired Spanish of the period & their effect on South America...
Anglo-Saxon, Walsall; Some of the points that you have made are valid but equally some are complete cobblers! What was the British Empire all about, if not about imposing British Law on other countries. Half the world is in a mess because of what was left behind once these countries gained independence. Rule Britania, Britania rules the waves... all started as the illicit gains of criminals, eg. Francis Drake a murderous pirate. Asif,I may be "chating crap" (sic) but as you are arguing something I havent said...And as Im not Muslim,it sounds like you need to re read & reconsider your thoughts too,mate.
asim khan, but even if you were born here and don't respect british culture or try to impose your culture on , remember we were here long before you and our ancestors died in many wars for hundreds of years for this country so don't think you have any right to stay here. If you feel more muslim than british leave and go to a muslim country. Saghir, I don't care if you were born here. Our ancestors have died for this country and not for people like you who don't even consider yourself British. We have been here far longer than you and your family and if you don't consider yourself British then go back to wherever you came from because your not wanted here. musa go and live in muslim country then. But you don't because you know Britian is a better place to live then any muslim country. I would never dream of going to your countries and try to impose British culture upon you or try to impose my values on you because I thought yours were wrong so don't come to Britain and do that, and If you were born here it doesn't give you the right to impose your foreign culture on Britain as our culture has been here long before yours. Our ancestors have died in wars fighting for this country to preserve our culture for hundreds of years and immigrants come here and say they're british when they or their family have never fought in a war for britain. And also they come here and try to impose their culture on ours, if they want to do that they can go back to where ever they or their family came from. muhammed, bolton
Sumaiya Zabwala
If you don't agree with British values don't live here. The British were here long before you were and your family. britain has had it's own culture fot thousands of years. Who do you think you are coming here and changing it. If you don't agree with british values you can go to a country whos values and culture you agree with because we don't want you in England, The UK or Europe. I don't care if you were born here it doesn't make you English or British. 'Nothing to be grateful about?' The term 'English' used to "oppress non English"? These two comments against my country England and a whole lot more *I* find offensive! The former person can stop taking advantage of the preferential treatment he gets or shut up playing the victim, the latter can develop a spine and stop being brainwashed by political correctness, although of course, he's obviously a convert - it suits his cause.Muslims blew up children in London. We do not want you here. Simple. Personally I don't think that we have one identity, we are British muslim , Asian or British citizen of Pakistani origin.
I see myself as "New British" as my parents are both different, one is Kashmiri and the other is English and Somalian. I was born in the UK and am proud of my muslim heritage and refuse to ignore my British and Somalian heritage which is why I feel that if I need to be catagorised for statistical purposes then I want to be defined as New British. Are you shamed or feeling envious Russ that you do not possess the skills to write long answers like Miss Sumaiya? Why dont you DROP a reply for Mr DANNY BOY?
russ nass you are chating crap. How can you say you would turn against your fellow muslims, making the fact that Iraqis and Iranians do it. You need to re-consider your thoughts mate! Mosh-In this life u have choices whether u want 2 believe in the almighty or not,its entirely upto u& no1 can force nethin upon u.However u must realise that all ur actions wil hav certain consequences whether we talk about ur present life or afterlife.Upon return 2 allah we r judged on th basis of the motivations of our actions.Where we acted inorder 2serve Allah we wil b rewarded &where we rebelled against him we will be punished.Either way aftr death the state in which we enter will las 4evr! "Every Person, male or female, black or white who are born in the United Kingdom are British. Regardless of where their parents are born and regardless of the colour of skin."
Ibrahim Newman, London: Hear hear! AOA, I'm now 19 years of age and unlike most british muslims, I wasn't born here. I do have british citizenship and yes, i do live here..i even attend university here and completed my secondary schooling here. Being born and raised in the caribbean sort of overshadows everything i do because i constantly compare the differences in lifestyles, technology, entertainment and convenience. What makes me despair is that i live in a country where huge decisions are made..the recent wars for example. That was for Danny Jenson for the highly un-called statements he made on Muslims. Sumaiya, you wrote "many of these bomb blasts are actually engineered by the occupation powers" Well this shows why the Islamic world is falling so far behind the rest of the world, economically etc. It beggers belief that Sunni Muslims are actually welling to blow themselves up along with shias at shia mosques in order to help the American forces. However, that they are doing so (according to you) shows how easily lead these people are. Maybe if they understood as you do they would stop. True believers do not distinguish between colour, race or creed; regardless of where they are born and bred. The point as always has been missed by the masses! Bismil-lahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
Rana, why are we threatened with eternal torture and hellfire if we don't pray 2 god, sounds pretty brutal for a benevolent god, especialy since he doesn't need us to pray to him. And no Muslim is ungrateful to UK and there is nothing to be grateful about. No one asks English white people to be "grateful" to UK and hence why should British Musllims be asked to be grateful? There is no need for Muslims being "grateful" to UK because no "favours" have been done to Muslims by the UK and since Muslim and white Britons are equal citizens of UK, the question of one being grateful to the other does not arise. Then one should also ask why the English and white Britons are being ungrateful to the Muslims after the colonial looting and pillaging of the latter's lands for the past three centuries which is continuing until today in Iraq!
I don't think raping young girls is done anywhere in the name of Islam, but Bosnian Muslim women were indeed mass raped by Serbs as a way of suppressing them, humiliating them and impregnating them in a cannibalistic manner!
The murder of children in Beslan cannot be blamed on Muslims or Islam just as the crimes of Bush and Blair that has killed and maimed millions of children in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere cannot be blamed on all Christians and Christianity.
Rubina: Why are you criticising people for the way they write. That’s wide of the mark, not everyone is perfect in this matter. If he speaks in such a malice manner you should explain, not belittle him. Mike G: The US Army chiefs/Presidents/CIA Chiefs are well educated and employed? And yet see how many murder plots and terrorist activities they have enacted. Including testing chemical weapons on their own citizens!! Danny-boy: You may be a Brit, but English is not your first language. Your poor literacy skills are proof of this. Perhaps you too are of foreign-lineage. Indeed, the desired effect was achieved and I laughed and laughed. The Talamasca is a figment of Anne Rice's imagination. i m proud of being muslim and would like to do something for islam so that i cn feel more proud that atleast i did something in life which almity has given us. Nick, you do not know what you are talking about. murder of children (besla russia), blowing them to pieces.cutting the head off a woman who is helping the sick in baghdad iraq.killing aid workers.raping young girls to get to "paridise" (taliban afganistan)
My parents are devout muslim. i however am not, i stocppet praying to allah over ten years ago as i feel if allah is so great he will know i believe in him. I am British,and i love my country more than anything else.In pakistan where my blood originates they treat the public like dirt,in this country we are treated very well..better than that.so to put your religion before all else is stupid.it makes a mockery out of my religion and makes you look like a complete moron. First of all, you are all Human Beings. Second of all, faith is something between you and God. It is not a creed for which one goes on a Jihad for. Life is made up of something more than prayer and visits to a central place of worship, be you Christian, Jew, or Muslim. More education, employment leaves less time for youth to join terror, and murder plots. The day of finality nears. The patients of normal Muslims, Jews, and Christians is not eternal, like God. Rick- Do u know this for a fact?? Or have u seen this amoungst a handful of peole? Plz do not judge all of us with the same standards of those. Last night 2 young asain lads in my area got stabbed by 3 white men for no apparant reason. This doesnt make me think that all white men are stabbing lunatics!! As a muslim i give to charity generously whether it be for a muslim cause or non muslim. Mosh- Where do u get ur statements from??? Allah swt does not need us to pray to him to remind him of how good he his!! U pray for yourself and others! Allah is all powerful all knowing he will not falter in any way if u dont pray, rather u will lose out on all of Allahs glorious benefits!! Nice to see all the unsupportable propaganda machine back at work. What is Talamasca Rubina? I think everyone watches and listens. Are you trying to say we dont? It may be a surprise for some on this site to learn that a white 'Christian minister' has applauded the July 7 London bombings.My point being that there are bad & good in every race.The important thing to do is to make sure that we as individuals treat others as we would like to be treated. Irfan -I'm not Muslim but I would like to think that as another woman in this world,I would be your 'sister'also.At the end of the day, like it or not, we all have to inhabit one planet,let's do it peacefully Further to James Jackson,people would do well to note how extremists from all sides are SO similar - intolerance of gays & other religins,"stick to your own" xenophobia,capital/corporal punishment,demonisation of others,"our race is the best" etc.All come full circle,just like the pigs in Orwells Animal Farm.Who needs it.
Zahid,your little dig takes me no further.Perhaps you have difficulty expressing youself succinctly.Please help the thick one - How does Sumaiya's view deal with a Muslim invader - in whatever county one's in,& am I right then that Iran & Iraq are all off to hell for fighting each other ??
I'm good, but not that good. So by virtue of this fact alone, I can't possible judge anyone except those who are single celled organisms. If you come under that group and the cap fits...
Allah is not in need of us. We are in need of Him. We must call upon Him to achieve in this life and the next. He is our Creator and our Master. Our Lord and our King.He is the one who deserves all the awe, fear, love, respect and reverence, but in our petty life-mindedness, we forget this or ignore it or, god forbid, disbelieve in it.
The love of Allah demands total and unconditional obedience. Allah, the Almighty says: ( Say [oh, Muhammad!]: "If you love Allah, follow me: Allah will forgive you your sins, for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.) (Quran: 3/31)
Russ nass: With all due respect to you to, I prefer to write in long answers just like you do in short. The answer is not only for you to read but it is for other non muslim and muslim people to read too. Zazakallah! Rubina. You are a muslim sister to me in Islam. That is a sign of respect. Your sceptical about everything.Cant YOU accept when someone dissagrees with your points. Rush nass:You must be thick for not understanding, she has made it crsystal clear by her answer. I ask you what is the difference between racists and muslims? Racists don't accept people that look different, but alot of muslims don't accept non-muslims. I hear muslims say muslims should stick together no matter what? I see NO difference between this and racism. One works on belief the other on race, same thing! I'am proud of being a muslim and also british. The fact is many younger british muslims do not understand that, they are being taught the evil things, islam teaches us about being civilised and to live in peace and harmony with our neighbours. We all have our freedom of speech but we should not promote hatred againest british way of life. A true muslim would know that, and we should teach our younger muslims to follow the good path and not be diverted to extremism and hatred againest society. If god is all powerful and perfect in every way, why does he need us to pray to him five times a day every day and tell him how great he is? I think "Faria" is winding us up. i'm a muslim which i live in uk i'm pruod of being muslim and i'm shame being british becouse of 'war on terror'clam to me is war on muslim civilaisation @Adam: A lot of the plane load of immigrants includes the Germans and East Europeans, white South Africans - or are you only referring to 'brown' immigrants?
There is much charity collecting at the moment for the unfortunate people in the earthquake struck Pakistan.While I do feel sorry for these people and have given money,when do muslims give charity to British causes? In my experience,NEVER.So,why should my fellow countrymen put their hand in their pockets for ANY muslim cause,when muslims very rarely,if ever,do the same for us??? Zahid Patel,I may well have missed the point but I am still waiting for a clear explanation. And Rubina, get your facts right. Nobody is judging you. If anything you are the one who is! Rubina? What dont you think so????? Hello Rubina!!!! No one is preeching. This is a forum for opinions!!!! No ones forcing you to act upon what they say! Maybe you have a low understanding skill! Faria,as human beings we all have choice.You are debating to eliminate yours.
For the record, I am not your 'sister'. I share blood only with my sibling; and only he has the right to call me 'his sister'.
I thinkj it's terrible that my grandfather fought and died in a war to uphold the values of free speech so that a generation later planeloads of arrogant immigrants can write tripe like this. If you dont like it here you're more than welcome to return to your ancestral homes Irfan Panderwala: I don't think so! To all you Muslim do-gooders: Stop bleating about what you think Muslims should do for one another. Surely you need to practice what you preach; and indeed lead by your own good example. Perhaps you need to revisit your own learning and understanding. I asked:- "How does a Muslim know that Mohammed had any contact with a God of any kind?"
That is true. If you think about it we all dont know thats why we ask and have such forums. Why is Rubina getting so sentimental for
Sister Rubina. I have no right as a muslim individul and a subservient servant of Allah to judge anyone. Only he above has the ordained right.
Just another day in the life of Christians who dare exist.
Russ, you speak as if I have a choice. Allah (swt) will choose my path, and I follow him. I am frustrated by some things in my life, but I must accept that I have no options. I think it is better for people like me not to experience life outside the home. Then these frustrations will not arise. sumaiya zabwala : Thankyou for the link, and the response. It is appreciated.
Mike, Newcastle: You really do need to brush up on your comprehension skills; I did answer your question and asked two more in return. Irfan : 1) I am not a sister. 2) I do not know about Islam & fully accept my ignorance, thats why I ask. Sumaiyas points leave gaps that I dont understand. It sounds like Muslims are not allowed to fight if other Muslims invade their country. Or is it that by invading fellow Muslims they are no longer considered Muslims themselves ? I dont get it,sorry.... Sumaiya and Irfan, UK: Yes I am a female; BUT Russ is a male!
Is Mike making a porocative statement or have I just misunderstood? Mickey: What do you mean by other dan no religion Islam teaches hatred,baically to kill others? What are you trying to say. Can you be a little clear and precise. Mike your totally un-aware of what the so called-ancient script which we call the quran preeches. You should be for-warned that Islam does not teach muslims to kill non-believers, before you reach such conclusions get you facts right. Russell and Rubina have cleary missed the points Sumaiya Zabwala is trying to make. Those people who fight in the name of Islam are pathetic. Its quite true how its against Islam. And especially when it involves two muslim parties. Nobody fights against Islam now. People are doing everything out of power and greed. Just to be sovereign. Theres nothing wrong with the countries its the money digging self-centric political leaders. Excuse me Miss Rubina but what shariah says all Muslims are to abide by the laws of the country that they reside in. Use your common sence atleast. Forget Islam, for a momment, and use your logic.Learn from the Isralis, the way they stick with one another. They will do anything for each other and you here are uptight by your country and dont give peanuts about WHAT YOU RELIGION says! Astagfirulah lady!
I am not denying that muslim brothers kill muslim brothers all around the world. But that does not mean I accept it. The point I was trying to address to the sister is when she stated she will do anything for her country and that means going against mulims, why did she claim that others do it as well.
Trevor Wallsall. My comments to you are incomplete.For a full answer please visit my site www.sumaiyazabwala.blogspot.com Following on from the Piglet ban,I wonder how Mecca bingo has remained unscathed in these sensitive times...Unless Ive missed something ? Sumaiya,so if youre in one Muslim country (or here) & another Muslim country goes to war with you,do I assume that you just turn the other cheek & let them just come in & get on with it - or perhaps respond with harsh language backed up by a T shirt & leaflet campaign ??
Unlike you Rubina - I will answer your question, I have no idea as to who spoke to who or if & when.
Faria,you sound well programmed & that you're caught in a dichotomy that threatens to engulf you.Running from your education may or may not be for the best,but it sounds like you feel that its your only option & that its what you want (!!?),so I wish you the best. Sumaiya, London, UK: You are very naive. Islamic Law also states that all Muslims are to abide by the laws of the country that they live in.
Man! Whats wrong with the leicester peeps, why they taking offense over a piggy bank-man they need to re-consider.Islam says not to eat pig meat,doesnt say wheneve u c a un-real pig u get ofended.so embarasing! SUMAIYA:You tell them Girl.I am obviously a British but I can never fight my apneh.Wicked quotes you given2back up!
Dear Sister Sumaiya. I saw the statements mde by the sisters to you, the sister rus n rubina are definetly ignorant women. They seem to not know about Islam and brotherhood. To add your answers are marshallah lovely. Are you a writer? Just what would the muslims here in Britain do,if the remarks made by the Irian prestident started a world war, would they fight for britain against other muslims countries,and turn thier backs on the country that has given them freedom here. It would be interesting to know just what the muslims here really feel about Britain. Mike, Newcastle, UK: In response to your one question; I have two. How does a Christian know that Jesus was the son of God? And how does a Jew know that God spoke to Moses through a burning bush? It s up to the individual if they want to believe or not! Thank you Frank for the explanation. The hadith states: A Muslim brother is a brother of a Muslim; he does not abandon him and he does not give him away: regardless Fighting against a Muslim in Islam is regarded as ignorance and stating that if others do it thereby its fine for me to do it is totally irrational. It was however stated by a sheikh Dr Ahmed that after September 11th attack a Muslim soldier in the American Army must surely refrain from participating in this war, and if he cannot he must submit his resignation. And moreover if he is forced to fight he is forbidden to kill a Muslim with his weapon. Now surely War includes killing. The prophet said ‘Do not go back after my death to being infidels who ask about civil war between Muslims, he said if two Muslims fight with their swords and kill each other , then the place of both the killers and the killed is hell’ Anyway a consensus emerged that it was forbidden for a Muslim to fight his brother; to the extent that even if the Muslim brother’s guilt was proven, a Muslim brother is forbidden to fight his brother all more when it occurs as a result of propaganda and lies. To enlighten the sisters: Fighting for the country has everything to do with faith particularly when it involves combating against your own “Muslim brothers and sisters” The sister has portrayed her implication in a manner that makes me assume that she will undergo any measures for her country. I’d like to also learn about your opinion in what you feel about the imposed war in Iraq. However let us place this matter as a scenario, “If the Iraqi’s take a reprisal for what the British government did and declared war on our country, would you regard this as unjust, or would you blindly fight for your country?! Why wouldn’t you, because if not who else will you fight for? Now let’s get real here. Frank,I didnt know about the piglet ban by Dudley council but it shows that tragedy & comedy are closely related....Its a tragedy & the sort of thing that causes problems,not prevents them.That said,its the funniest thing Ive read on this site ! As a vegetarian,I think the talking pepperami on TV is pretty offensive ! Sam, Russ, my father would not listen to my opinions on these matters. If I am unhappy it is because he favours me by allowing me to travel with him, and have an education. My sisters and friends at home are not unhappy. I am a Muslimah and must accept that my future is preordained. I am taught to respect my father, my brothers and ultimately my husband. Total obedience is expected of me. I have guidance to help me be a better Muslimah, and I have asked to return home. Life is easier there. One question:-
Faria:If you love and respect your father, dont you love him enough to give him dawah on Islam. Maybe where he is going wrong Faria? What makes you feel your husband will do the same. You shouldnt always see the negative side, seek guidance and pray to Allah that you get the best. Inshallah Faria,I think you need to weigh up self respect against respect for your family.You sound very unhappy,yet are prepared to seemingly martyr yourself to keep others happy.Why ? Are people fully respecting your wishes & happiness,& your rights as a person ? If not,then surely you need to do something.Is your fathers love conditional on your total obedience,& what would happen if you spoke up for yourself ?? It seems you put up with a lot in the name of respect.
Shumma sheikh: I am much discontented regarding your dispute. Whilst we understand the importance of love and compatibility we must ensure the approval of both parties. But in situations when parents are being purely selfish for cultural reasons what is a person to do? It is clear that you are in a relationship and need to get married ASAP to avoid any sins happening. If however the father and mother aware of this they should ensure marriage takes place immediately. Mere excuses such as they are from another caste are unacceptable. However religion should be taken into account. In situations like this parents need to be advised, especially someone who can have influence over them i.e. relatives, imam etc. However a need for someone to intervene is vital. The prophet (peace be upon him) said When one with whose religion and character you are satisfied asks in marriage then accede to his request. If you do not then there will be temptation in the earth and extensive corruption” You did not specify exactly what you meant by ‘appalling treatment;’ however I am of the understanding that you are referring to the eminent disputed affairs about Muslim women being oppressed, treated like second class citizens and not given rights in Islamic State countries. Islam elevated the status of women by declaring them equal to men, giving them many rights. Rights included were the right to work, right to education, right to marry who she wishes and so forth. There is no legal provision in the Quran which prohibits women from seeking these rights. I as a British Muslim feel very disturbed about the so - called Islamic fundamental rights that are imposed on a woman in Islamic countries. These rights clearly are a contradiction of the Quranic Islamic rights of women. Shumma Sheikh, Manchester, UK: What a terrible predicament to be in. According to the laws of Islam, race, creed or colour must not enter into dialogue regarding marriage. Unfortunately, people do bring these things into being. If I was you, I'd elope to Gretna Green and be happy with my love. The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return! Again cultural issues rule over religious ones! Sumaiya, London, United Kingdom: Get real! Of course I would fight for my counrty. Fighting for one's country has got nothing to do with faith! Do you really believe that a Muslim has never taken up arms against another Muslim? Look at civil wars in most of the Muslim world; the Iran and Iraq War.
EVERY LIVING BEING HAS THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE IN WHAT HE FEELS IS THE TRUTH. THOSE BOOKS YOU ARE REFERING TO IS THE HOLY QURAN THAT WAS SENT BY GOD. EXACTLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU SEE BUT WHAT DO WE SEE? THE MOON,THE STARS, PEOPLE DYING, WEATHER CHANGING ETC SO WHERE DID THESE COME FROM. WHOS CONTROLING THIS.WHY ARE THERE OTHER PLANETS BESIDES EARTH. WHY ARE WE IN THIS WORLD?FOR WHAT? AND MARCUS SOMETIMES ITS NOT ALL ABOUT RELIGION,IT'S ABOUT RACE, THE COLOUR OF YOUR SKIN, THE STATUS YOU HAVE, ETC IF I FEEL THERES A NEED TO ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC SHARIAH WHY NOT? JIHAD IS NOT AGAINST ISLAM. YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR ISLAM. BUT JIHAD HAS TO BE DONE FOR THE RIGHT REASONS SET IN THE QURAN. THERES A WIDER SCOPE TO JIHAD AND ONE HAD TO GO IN TO IT PREETY DEEP TO UNDERSATND IT. A BROTHER CANNOT EASILY STATE I WANT TO DECLARE WAR ON ANOTHER'S COUNTRY, BECAUSE I'M DOING IT FOR THE SAKE OF JIHAD. IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY. Sumaiya (sam), yes it is correct that piggy banks have been withdrawn by some Building Societies as they fear offence will be caused. This move was appluaded by local (leicester) Muslim "leaders". This follows the piglet ban by Dudley council after a complaint by a muslim worker.
SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? IF MUSLIMS FIGHT EACH OTHER IT ALL BECOMES OK FOR YOU TO SAY THAT YOU WILL UNDERGO ANY MEASURES TO FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY. SO JUST BECAUSE IGNORANT MUSLIMS ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER ITS OK FOR YOU TOO ASWELL. AND WHATS JIHAD GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT? READ WHAT YOU WROTE SISTER IN YOUR PREVIOUS FORUM.YOU CLEARY NOT MAKING ANY SENSE Trevor, the Qu'ran is interpreted in many ways, and I believe that a cultural spin is put on the words to suit different countries/cultures. In my country women are not allowed to drive, or leave the house without escort and permission, and we must cover ourselves too. A Muslim born in Britain( and therefore a British Muslim?) would not understand such restrictions, because the culture is different, although we are all Muslims. Sumaiya,lets clarify this - if a muslim country tried to invade,or declared war on the UK are you with them ? Do you decide what side your on purely on the basis of religion ?
Sumaia,since when have Muslims NOT fought each other ? Surely you dont need instances...
I HAVE NO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
i have a problem and would like some advise..i am an indian muslim and want to marry a pakistani muslim..but the major problem is his father.who is sticking to his word and saying no!only becoz i am indian.He has had so many arguements with his father over this. his father said the only way you can marry her is if you leave and never return. We dont want that.i want to be part of them.what can we do? we are finding it really hard.my family are tired of waiting around and want me to go india.. QUOTE FROM RUBINA:If I had been a member of the armed forces then of course I would go to war for Queen and Country......
Cairan, I really do not believe so. Why would Muslims care less about such trivial issues about piggy banks? They have more important issues to worry about rather then wailing about piggy banks. This is pathetic statement and if it is factual I would like you to give me some verification on this dispute. They should be concerned about issues about the war in Iraq and why the hijab was banned in France: not piggy banks!!! Protect us for ever. They need to protect themselves John. Imposing a war on Iraq is going to cost them a great deed. Nevertheless why should we be concerned about whether a British soldier died for his country, when the hypocritical British government send troops to loot and invade war in other countries? Why, when the British or America have no respect for the welfare and well-being of other countries why should we sympathise on whether any British or American soldier gave his life for his country? Your arguments are trivial! According to the Geneva Convention it is unlawful to kill civilians so why in World War II was thousands of Muslims killed. To those critising the morals in the west. I would ask, is the appalling treatment of women in countries such as saudi arabia and pakistan something you would prefer?. I would also be extremely interested to know if the acts towards women in islamic states is condoned by the Quran or is instead a cultural issue.
Sumaiya, if you think my parents will discuss these things with me, you misunderstand the nature of my family, our culture, traditions. My father makes the rules, as will my husband one day. I can say things on this site I could never say out loud, but I also love my father, respect him, and my culture too. Cairan, Leeds, UK: Yes very sad! People forget that pigs are found in Muslim countries too.
This is a message for the Muslim brothers and sisters
Frank Delaney your absolutely right about why Muslim countries are left behind.
I think it should bu British-Muslim or their nationality with British eg. Pakistani-British I have read today that piggy banks are to be banned because they upset muslims. Just one of many bans on innocent old British traditions. Muslims must be a very delicate people to be upset by such innocent things. John, Leeds: Don't tar us all with the same brush. Members of my family have fought and died for this country too. But they were Muslims not Christians. A Christian life is worth the same as a Muslim one. We are all of the same species and that's why we reproduce fertile young. I might be to quote you 'Muslim Scum' but you are an ignorant scum which is much worse! relgion above other religions. I also would like to know is you had to choose between state or religion, fighting for country or religion, which would you choose.
Aa I look back through history I can only see that religion has been divisive. In fact I have not seen any evidence to suggest that we can all live in harmony, in the same touwns and cities, with everyone practising their choice of faith. I have no grudge against any religion, but can any one in this forum give me an indication of how they think we call co exist happily and united. Muslims amongst Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs. As someone who has no religion, I want to know do you regard your Today is the celebration of a British hero. A man that fought and died for a country that he loved and believed in. He fought from his own country. He did'nt hide behind the generousity of the French and then stab them in their backs. Remember this you muslim scum! The only reason you can inflict any damage on the the west is because the do-gooders allow it. They will not be able to protect you for ever! Dress alone will not eliminate the attraction of the sexes, nor violence against women. A woman may be totally covered up, but still behave in a way that displays her beauty, manipulating men through her sexuality. Another woman may not follow that type of traditional dress code but may be quiet and humble in her dress and manner. She does not play on attracting men. It is one’s innermost intentions that count the most. I feel sympathy for you because forcing Niqaab is really irrational because Niqaab is not obligatory but however liked in Islam. Thus sister I would urge you to come forward and elucidate to your parents that you are discontented with their views and because of their strict rules and regulations it is affecting you mentally and socially.
Faria: Like I stated before its very much of the cultural aspect they foresee, but parents are choosing to inflict only those certain likes in Islam they prefer to impose on children, thus its more of a ‘pick and choose’ per their needs. They believe that making women per se wear the Islamic dress namely Niqaab in your situation will prevent Non-Muslim brothers and Muslim brothers from indulging in any friendship or sexual activity with you. With regards to your case.................. Dr khan: The meaning of Islam is Peace, surrender,pure.....So when individuals fight in the name of Islam this is pure ignorance and such people are only doing it for their pride and ego. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Mike, the hadith you quote has been transated a thousand times and interpreted in as many ways. I am not a scholar, but I know that the Qu'ran is used by some to control others. Rubina is right, it is culture and tradition, not Islam, that imprisons me. Islam is just used as an excuse. I am interested in this forums Muslim commentators on voting. It seems that muslims in Britian are one of the highest percentage of voters. I watch and listen to people who say that democracy is unislamic, whilst also saying that the USA supports tyrants and should not force democracy on them. How do you now feel about George Galloway now - opportunist? Does any system apart from democracy work? Is the lack of it the reason that islamic counties are behind the rest of the world economically? Rubina,theres nothing wrong with having faith.If thats your thing then fine.I just have a problem with science when it purports to back up the creation.Christian or Islamic,its all a move toward fundementalism (ie backwards).
FARIA - accept my sympathies:-
Russ, UK: I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a faith. I also do not ignore any scientific evidence- how can you when it stares you in the face. That does not mean I cannot believe in God.
Sumaiya, Niqab is forced on me because my parents will not let me outside the house without it. If you think girls like me are in a position to debate the rights and wrongs of these things, you have no idea what my family, or our culture, is really like. Rubina - at least you & George W have creationism in common.
I so much agree with Dr. Navidul Haq Khan. It does not matter where you are as long as you know your limits and views are not interrogated by the state you living in. I do not see any british law stopping us from practising our faith or condeming or imposing any christian branding on us(unlike India) We are not forced to go Church or celebrate Xmas nor have the British forbidden us from building mosques or islamic schools.
Being a British Muslim of Pakistani origin does not pose any problems at all. The State does not obstruct my right to carry out my religious obligations. I am a practising Muslim and a loyal British Citizen. If the State starts interfering with my religious obligations I will struggle, within the Law to change things. If unsuccessful I will migrate. This is the example of the Holy Prophet (salAllaho alaihe wa sallam). I believe that some groups preaching hatred are leading double lives.
Amanda- thanks for your explanation.Yes u r right there is much more to Britain than drink, sex and clubbing! I have non muslim friends who have a great time without resorting to any of those factors. Rajia- I have to agree with Sumaiya what r u talking about? U should resent ur parents for not being islamically educated. And u should resent ur culture because everything you'v said relates to cultural issues not islamical issues. It's sad how so many people get culture mixed up with religion!! Steve, Halifax: You make a valid point. However, I am a scientist and believe in God and the Creation. What in the living hell is Rajia Begum blabbering about. Ok I can highly expect and digest why you resent your family for not allowing you to have a socially active life but what makes you come to a conclusion that you resent Islam for this. This is totally absurd and illogical! Islam does not prohibit women from being independent and socially active, as long a she knows her limit according to the rules and regulations set by shariah. Islam allows women to educate themselves; it however encourages women to seek knowledge about all kind affairs whether political, academicals or personal. What in the living hell is Rajia Begum blaberring about. Ok I can highly expect and digest why you resent your family for not allowing you to have a socially active life but what make you come to a conclusion that you resent Islam for this. This is totally absurd! Islam doesnt not prohibit women from being independent and socially active as long a she knows her limit per shariah. Islam allows women to educate, it however encourages women to seek knowledge about all kind affairs.................. It took the second Vatican Council in 1965 to give Mary a prominant place in Christianity. It was officially recognised by the Church that although Mary is not part of the Trinity she should be revered as the Mother of Christ.
Curiuosly I think Britian has become religiously less tolerant in the last 50 years or so.
I have to say, having taught in a Catholic School, I do not advocate religion based schools. They breed contempt and ignorance.
Nick, UK: Yes you're right women are not forced to wear Yarmulkes. And the reason- men wear them!
Rajia-As far as I'm aware there's nothing in the Quoran that forbids mixing with other races etc, it encourages you to embrace them so try not to blame Islam.I don't understand why people move abroad and then refuse to mix with or learn about the 'locals'.This behaviour is ALWAYS unacceptable.There are good and bad things in every society, you have to have enough inner strength to decide what's right for yourself.I do feel for you having led what appears to have been an extremely sheltered life! Rana-I agree with you.My point was that in Britain,people have the right to be themselves.More Xians haven't settled in Muslim countries because the Xians who are already there are persecuted by idiots claiming to be 'Muslim'.They clearly aren't, because Islam preaches peace and tolerance. Saudia Arabia has also declared that a church will never be built there.Thankfully Britain lets all religions have their place in society.I was explaining to Umaar that Britain is about more than drink & sex The greatest thing to see on this page whilst reading through these messages is.. how everybody has a voice and is given the chance to express themselves as accordingly. There's people on here from all walks of life..... y?,,,,,, becauses faces are not visible. Its all well writing all but it's important to put it into practise too. i want to ask if there's a British, Nigerian, Jordanian, Indian, Pakistani and a Bangladeshi in a room..all whom are in Britain,... Who has the last say? With respect,I can see that theres much to be said for the French ban in schools (not in the entire country Nick mate).It allows young people the space to make INFORMED choices later & not to get entrenched in a cultural/family malaise,& thus better integration & sociological unity.Go & pray outside of school,& make that apply to all.
Amanda- The comment you made about how many churches are there across the islamic world. Well there are many churches in places like pakistan & India coz there are christians there if there were more christians in/settled the "islamic world" then the number of churches would increase. There are so many mosques in the UK because so many muslims have come to settle in the UK and so have built thier place of worship with their own money because it is so important to them! There is much pressure to conform in our communities. I was bought up in Tower Hamlets and my parents were strict and protective; I was expected to wear hijab, told to avoid mixing with none asian freinds outside or even to go to after school clubs. This was because they were afraid what neighbours might say and because they didnt want me to get into drugs, drinks or boys. But it did cut into my social life and ability to express myself and I still resent my parents, culture and Islam for that. rubina get a life! women are'nt forced to wear crucifixes or yarmulkes you dolt. Sumira, yes I live with my parents, I am 16, and I wear niqab because all the girls older than 12 do in my family. As I said, you are lucky to have a choice. Nick, UK: You forgot to include crucifixes and yarmulkes; get a life!
fariah may i ask do you live with ur parents? how old are you and do you wear the niqab/hijab out of choice or is it forced upon you? Gulshan, Manchester: I wear hijab so their assumption would be quite correct.
Nizamuddin,the point I made was that naff all of "the spoils" made it to those children.It went to the privilliged few.
The Pankhurst girls would turn in their graves to witness the backward submissive behaviour of Muslim women in this country. I support the current campaign to ban hijabs in Britain, as happened in France. The 50% of children who died in the eastend was not due 2 lack of money. It was lack of equal distribution which was later the mainstay of the welfare state. Look at where we are now...there are not many dying of starvation in the east end. In the end the money did filter thru.
Sumira, I think you are lucky to have a choice. Because you have a chance to experience a different culture, you have a chance to integrate and feel British, even if you put that second to your religious beliefs. Your parents have obviously allowed you to do that, which is a credit to them, but there are girls like me who do not have that choice. Strict purdah stops us living as a part of our adopted country, and causes racial tensions too, I believe. Try wearing niqab rather than hijab! rubina,london:- im presuming your a muslim, so are you trying to tell me that no1 has ever come across you and automatically said right she's a mulim because of how you look without them asking and regardless of what you believe. We know there's more to religion than one's skin colour. Good God! Some of you people are thick! Religion has nothing to do with race. The colour of your skin does not determine your religious inclination. It is what you believe. I pity you! Just because I wear shalwar kames does not automatically link me to a Pakistani, jews and Christians wear shalwar kames they’re not Pakistani. They are fully British. Clothing does not tell what religion you are. Theresa, London: I’ve got to admit I have no English genes but I understand totally what you mean. I too am very fair skinned, have extremely light eyes and hair, I could easily be mistaken for being a non muslim. But I just want state to those ignorant people out there you don’t have to be a White revert just because I look white I am ashamed to admit that I am not a completely practising muslim, I pray, I read, and I try to do the right but I don’t do the complete wrong too. I listen to English music.and well u know other bits and bats… All im saying is if push comes to shove. ‘Im a muslim first, then a British and then a Pakistani female’- and proud of it all. Why go against my religion, why hurt my parents etc..
Anyway, point being, I can easily go out and do what I feel regardless of what my parents say and feel because of the British country I live in. No matter how western I become no individual has a right to say anything (parents, family)- y? because I am old enough to live my own life, independent enough to face the big tough world. This is the point I think, y should i? what pleasure will gain? Why do it in this life when I can have it better in jannat? I had the opportunity to easily adapted to the western culture (drinking, clubbing, drugs or even cigarettes etc)
Nizamuddin.British culture comes from the spoils does it? What,when 50%of east end children died before they were five & most poor working Brits were "serf's" as much as anyone else-their only benefits from empire being tea,sugar,cotton,the workhouse & an early death ?
Culture is not static it is arrived at and continues...it is dynamic. Modern post ww2 british culture comes from the economic spoils of the empire. "You've never had it so good" said a famous PM..and right he was. Islamic did not suddently appear within the british pscyhe, its power and capability were known about since the crusades and later the thru the Indian occupation. British politicians pretend that all of a sudden we have power to contend with in a unipolar world. Y is this a surprise ? Musa,what does that actually mean ? Where does first & second come into it ? So,you're Muslim AND British.In ancient Rome,being Christian WAS in conflict with the state,so I guess (THEN) one could be Christian first & Roman second.Do you feel similar ?
Rubina,I said it was largely (not"just") an Islamic issue,& it is! I too could find other examples,but I stand by my words.
i am muslim first then british I am disappointed by a lot of suggestions that being Muslim is not compatible with being British. Britishness has been caricatured and insulted here. Most British people consider an integral part of that identity NOT judging people primarily according to their religion. It is a mistake to imagine people cannot take grave offence over insults to nationality in the same way you can over religion. Sadly, if the views on this thread are representative, I forsee a head-on cultural clash in future. Russ: I disagree with you. It is not just an Islamic cultural issue. The Catholic Europe from what I have seen displays much of the same attitudes towards women.
Mohammed-sorry, I should have explained myself better.The point I was making is the fact that people are able to follow their faiths etc freely in Britain & is part of what makes it Great.I know that Islam is a beautiful religion.However, certain people professing to be Muslim aren't peaceful & tolerant. Saudia Arabia will never allow a church to be built there. Egyptian, Iranian & Iraqi Christians suffer from horrendous persecution. Russ, it is ironic. Islam calls upon sisters to be modestm so as not to tempt the weak man into sin. So we dress modestly at home according to culture, but also according to the demands of our parents/husbands. Then we are taken to another country, and we live in Purdah, because our parents are frightened of what might happen to us if we are exposed to western culture. The truth is they do not want to let us go. Faria/Rubina,I guess my point is that the pushing of "modesty" & the covering up of women-to prevent men being driven mad by the sight of a bit of flesh is a bit feeble.It seems to me that it just creates repression-hence men being driven mad in such countries.Page 3 was once a big deal,now its not & thats a good thing.We've moved on from (perverse) Victorian repression in the uk.
Faria/Rubina,I guess my point is that the pushing of "modesty" & the covering up of women-to prevent men being driven mad by the sight of a bit of flesh is a bit feeble.It seems to me that it just creates repression-hence men being driven mad in such countries.Page 3 was once a big deal,now its not & thats a good thing.We've moved on from (perverse) Victorian repression in the uk.
When Muslims insist they are upholding human rights, justice and peace; too often they do so in a partisan and obviously biased manner. Almost as if these values only applied to Muslims, rather than bestowed by Allah (swt) on ALL peoples. I think it is time that we looked at ourselves and our motives and passions before commenting on others. Russ: Western women have to cover up in some countries because it has nothing to do with Islam. It is cultural to oppress and restrict women. I love Islam, I hate being a piece of proerty. message to amanda. you ask how many churches there are in the muslim world thousands is the answer. there are more than 1 million coptic christians in the world which means there fore fathers were christians and they bare witness today of islam tolerance, respect, and peace towards ohter religions. islam prechers peace nad tolerance, yet it also gives you permission to defen yourself, famliy religion and land. Russ: I totally agree with you. However, this is the reaction of (wo)man not the religion as such.
Maryam-The Foreign Office wouldn't refuse a visa for someone to get married in a civil ceremony in the UK on the grounds that they are Muslim.I know this for a fact.I suspect it's because you are currently not living in the UK and haven't been for a while.If not then there must have been another reason.Furthermore, you cannot just call an Embassy and get a visa,there are lengthy procedures that your fiance would have to go through,such as filling in forms and being interviewed if necessary. Just a little word here to any born british nationals who are muslim, if ur living outside of uk and want a civil marriage aswell as the nikah contract just know your not permitted. i called the emabbsy in saudi arabia today to get a visa for my husband to uk and they wont give him a visa for the purpose of a civil marriagecos we are muslims. so much for the red passport.. lol. Ummaar-The bad things you have done are down to your ways.Take responsibility.I am a non-Muslim and I,along with others,don't drink myself silly.Just as Muslim countries are NOT full of wife beating,terrorist, dishonest people,Britain is NOT full of binge drinking sexomaniacs!In Britain,there are Mosques.How many churches are there across the Islamic world?The freedom to be you,is what makes Britain Great.Britain isn't perfect but it tries & don't forget,there is more to Britain than Tony Blair! Rubina,its appreciated that culture rather than Islam per se oppresses women,but it's more of an Islamic problem (e.g.Faria,for whom there is a conspicuous lack of support here).
There are as many problems in muslim countries as in others. A route to solving them is the UN. Russia and China are permanent members of the UNSC, but hardly models of democracy.Yet there is no muslim, bloc or nation, with a veto carrying vote. The UN needs to encompass all values as with communist nations. Niger, Morocco and Indonesia could be easily resolved with the help of a UN fair mandate that is enforced. BUT even here there is UN resolution on Kashmir which India refuses to implement.y? Religion does not oppress women (or men for that matter!). It is how man interprets what is law that oppresses. This is very much evident from the way in which Islam is portrayed by Muslims and non-Muslims. Men like to oogle women, but get defensive when someone oogles their own. This is true regardless of race, colour or creed. Unfortunately men would rather see a woman with all her wares dislayed, than a covered one, then label the latter as oppressed. Big up modesty! Nizamuddin, I am sure you are very ernest in supporting the UN resolutions in regard to Isreal and I would like to see a final settlement there too. However, I have yet to see any support for the 100,000 Western Saharan muslims currently in camps in Algeria following the illegal occupation of their lands by Morroco or the state of the people in Dafur. As with the illegal occupation by Muslim Indonisia of east Timor there is a hugh slice of hypocracy in the popular Muslim stance on Isreal. Nizamuddin,its pretty obvious that democracy cant arise overnight,but I still ask why so many pakistani/brit muslims are so vocal about all this & seem to view the whole thing as a war on Islam ? It implies that some muslims are united with each other but have no allegiance to the country they live in.I cant see the Irish catholics kicking off over problems in other catholic countries-for example what if the Falklands had been considered a war on catholicism ?
I am me. A wife, a daughter, a friend, a doctor, and I pray that Allah considers me a muslim.
I am content to live in this country with people of all races and religions. Those who are not (whatever their race/religion) are part of the problem. This country has provided plenty for me and I am glad I wasn't born in any third world muslim country. Akbar,all power to you for saying it as it is.Being English I'd feel uneasy saying it,but Ive often come across this hypocracy with women-men who shag around but prefer to marry someone "fresh off the boat" or by arrangement.I expect an outcry now,from people that this DOESNT apply to,but its common enough.
Akbar,
Somebody please change the record. It's getting boring now. If we had known that there would be continuous conflict, then y did we promise liberation to the Iraqis ? But to give them (US/UK troops) credit,if it was conflict we were trying to end then surely the subjugation and illegal occupation must come to an end in Israel. This is what the UN resoltion 242 and 338 says, if people think that these UN resolutions are biased against Israel, then why does not USA propose a motion to anul the resolutions just described. It is injustice that is problematic. As Muslim why are we constantly fighting which each other. Iraq, Pakistan and Taliban, in Afghanistan.
Am I british or muslim? , Both. Iam proud to live in this great country I love the culture, the people, cities, fish and chips every thing about it. Yet I am also a strict muslim, I pray 5 times a day. I salute the saint georges and union jack flags, I sing the national anthem with pride. I am a proud muslim and a proud britan and no one can take that away from me. Nizamuddin, though I agree that we should leave Iraq it is probably due to different reasons from you. I think you are very nieve to think that "the resistance" will stop once the British and Americans leave. There will be a power struggle that will involve, Shia, Sunnis and the Insurgents (foreign fighters with a desire to establish a narrow Islamic State)with each trying to gain ultimate power. The Kurds will protect what they have got and the Iranian's, Turks and Syrians will all play a hand. Nizamuddin,firstly I always note the lack of Iraqi comments in these threads.The comments usually come from Pakistani/Brit Muslims,why ?
The recent statement by British forces communication officer that the rebels in Basra owe more allegiance to tribe, family and religion rather than central govt is astounding. If the objective was to win heart and minds after the war by establishing a democratic state, then this has failed.
Umaar Rashid,I dont think anyones asking you to take on their ways & beliefs.Integration is all thats needed - & Brit culture is no more about "binge drinking" than Muslim culture is about female subjugation,although theres a truth in both!If you think thats all there is to the Brits then clearly YOU need to integrate more - or try elsewhere,where you wont be able to blame your shortcomings on your inability to control yourself in the face of our seductive "western ways".Get a grip ! Right on Frank - Umaar is like many who seem to desire a firm hand to protect them from themselves.Its no wonder we end up with "nanny states" or countries with draconian cultures when people avoid personal responsibility.This "blame the west & its attitudes" is a bit hackney'd tho' - Umaar,try running that in court "the west made me do it - I just couldnt control myself when presented with their seductive evil ways".Get a grip. umaar rashid, the bad things that you have done are becuase you have chosen to do them. Nobody forces anyone to binge drink, rob, steal, lie or anything else..each of us has the responsibility for themselves. Hindus, Christian's, Buddists, Jain's, Toaist, atheists everyday choose not to hurt others or distroy themselves. Being good or bad is not something that is down to others but down to each individual. I choose to try and be faithful to myself, god and others. i dont feel british because this country`s goverment expect us to take on board their beliefs and ways of living,am 21 years old and not the strictest of muslims but most bad things that i have done are because of my western ways,whats apart of the british culture? bing drinking, imean these people have the nerve to turn around and say our elders are out of touch but in actual fact the younger generation are out of touch with our elders, because we are 2 caught up in this society . Islam never accept terrosim, suicide bombing. so those who did this he is never belongs to Islam.
On the day of judgement i will not be judged by where I lived, how big my house was, or how many possessions I own. I will be judged on my submission to Allah, believe in his prophets. Books, angels. And most of all I will be judged on my deeds.
Iain, if the Northern Alliance is so moderate, why do Afgahn women still wear the burqa? I think the west is fighting terrorism, not women's rights. In my opinion Islam is far too politicised. There are too many vested interests in Muslim countries using Islam to legitimise their otherwise illegitemate rule. Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism have to greater or lesser extents divorced state and church; to 'render upon ceaser' etc. Muslim civilisations haven't gone through that phase yet. I am confident that they will in the fulness of time. 99% afgan people support what we did to them and kill or arresst these people. Northen Alliance is the most moderated muslims people in earth and help us to win the war on terror.
It shouldnt be broadcat in the first place at all. These terrorist are getting what we did in Iraq and afganistan and freedom of these countries. In iraq (Think Muslim people) the sucide bombers are killing inncont (Your fellow Muslims) and thats the fact. We didnt kill Muslims we are protection them from rouges. In afganistan we liberty the afganistan and its people hates the Tubrian warloads etc. Dear Forum,
CAFCASS is required to comply with the Human Rights Act 1998. The Human Rights Act has been fully in force in the United Kingdom since 2 October 2000. The broad effect of this Act is to require that UK Domestic Law is interpreted, and that public authorities, including CAFCASS, act in a manner that is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.
mike,newcastle...after going through this thread.....you seem a very negative person.....thank god there are not many like YOU. Russ: You surprise me. Men are still very much driven insane by the "flash of an ankle". Sex sells. You only need to look at our advertising. Men don't see my hair but it s still a point of conversation with them. I'm told I'm not like other Muslims they have met- men and women. What the hell does that me? I think it's insulting. Mine's with milk and one sugar... Faria: Perhaps I am luckier than you, but I'm also very much older than you. Different generation, different thoughts. Unfortunately people mix tradition and culture with religion. Muslims all over the wrld are not the same> Yes we do have the same beliefs but we are bound by different cultures and traditions. Rubina,I think Faria accepts that its culture rather than Islam per se that represses women,but it is AN Islamic cultural interpretation doing it,& to be fair we dont hear Jewish women or nuns voicing the problems that Faria experiences because choice is involved.Ive yet to hear anything said that either truly acknowledges or helps her situation.
Rubina, you are right, it is not Islam, but my family, my culture and our traditions. You are still luckier than me. Faria: Your last posting is sad and depressing. Islam does not say that women cannot have a life outside the home, or a face, or a voice. These are man made rules. It is man that repressess women not religion. What do you mean by "people like me want to be British"? Why do some Muslim women wear all black? Arab men wear white, but their women wear black. Something that many Muslim women worldwide have adopted too. Why?? Man, that's why! It does not say anywhere that we must wear black. Russ: You have a fair point. However, I totally disagree with your point about clothing. Modest dress is required by both men and women. You do not have to walk around the streets half naked to be accepted by the masses. Nuns wear modest clothing. Strict Jewish women wear wigs. Nobody says anything. See a Muslim woman in hijab and its all about repression and force. It's about changing people's attitudes. To quote our leaders 'education education education'. About that tea... Rubina, you do live in a different world to me. You have a job and a life outside the home, and a voice. I have no life outside the home, no face, no voice. Rubina,I think that some of the prejudice is understandable - The common perception of Islam & women is based on situations like Faria's..In my work I often deal with young,westernised,semi-integrated Asian Muslims,& their attitude to their sisters & girlfriends reflects that of Farias family.
Faria, London: I disagree with you. I do not live in a different world. I am a child of the 60s. When I was growing up we did not have the same things as you do now. Things have moved on. Some good, some bad. But that's the way it is all over the world. Every generation thinks they have it hard. That's the reality of being you. This is my home and Islam is my faith. And the two get on very well! Mike, Newcastle: My God is the same as your God; I just call him by a different name- much the same as the other people of the book- the Jews. Read the scriptures and you will see that the prophets mentioned in the Bible are the same as those mentioned in the Quran. You are referring to God in the English Language but you will find that all people do not speak English and will refer to God in their own language and not the same as yours! Christian Arabs call God Allah too! People like me want to be British but it is not possible for a devout family to allow their daughters to integrate. Rubina, you live in a different world to me, and you are fortunate. Does Rubina assume that when she refers to GOD, that the Islamic God is not the same as the Christian GOD? It seems not, or is she doing as required 'deceive the Infidel'? Russ Nash, London: And another thing. People do have their prejudices; me included. I wear hijab. People automatically assume I am not an English speaker. They get a shock when I open my mouth- I see their eyes gloss over as the shock registers. The voice, the accent, the eloquence of my speech does not marry wth the hijab! Got the same reaction from the dinner ladies at the school where I teach. Ignorance breeds contempt and that is not good for the future our of country. Russ Nash, London: "reasonable"??? I think I'm normal, not reasonable. Yes hindsight is a great thing. Most of the mess in the so-called Muslim World is as a direct result of interference by the good-doers from the so-called 'Western Civilisation'. Yes people do need to lighten up. If you can't laugh at yourself, don't laugh at anyone else. I laugh all the time. Sorry Rubina,I have to add this : Do you think Thatcher wouldve handled the latest matters with kid gloves ? I doubt anyone would have to stretch their imagination too far (shudder)...
Elle's point is valid in the main,it just doesnt apply to reasonable people like Rubina..But Rubina,Whilst I'd accept there are Islamic female leaders/politicians,surely youd concede that,in general,its hardly the norm ? Unfortunately many westerners perceive Islam in a Taliban sense & therefore ARE fearful.So often Islam,in its many interpretations,seems the most politically loud religion...
Elle, Birmingham: On the contrary. This is my home. I am born and bred in the UK; a product of this country. I am very much English in the way that I think and believe. I am British. My nationality has nothing to do with my faith. That is between me and God. It was a twist of fate that I was born here and not somewhere else in this world of ours. Regardless I would still have been a Muslim. It is only the ignorant and fearful that feel that the two cannot marry. I am quite surprised by the comments here, i have always felt our muslim community to be valuable and integrated, with murdochs rants just anti-muslim propoganda.
Russ, London: The fairer sex do and have presided over the masses in both Islamic and non-Islamic states. And as for Thatcher, hindsight is a great thing. If it wasn't for her, divorced women would have rights to their ex-husbands pensions etc. To be fair, Fleet Street would never have moved, and we would never have known who Arthur Scargill was. And as for a United Europe, well the least said the better! Bambi - I'm sure you've made a "thorough" investigation from your armchair.Nothings clear at all,but I doubt your conspiracy theory at this stage.Still,its human nature to take the mysterious before the obvious - hence "leaps of faith".
Rus Nash, London: Not only have I read the intro, I finished the book and then some. Yes, books are written by man, but at least one is the 'Last Word'. All things from start to finsih are an improvement on the last. We would all certainly get on better if the fairer sex ruled! For the record, I thought the 'Life of Brian' was great and seem to recall much controversy on its release. Vis a vis 'The Passion of Christ', people are people regardless of what their faith is. The London bombings were clearly an inside job designed to detract from the G8 and revitalise support for the failing war for necessary 'peak' oil. The failed bombings of 21/7 and the predicatble patsying of Jean DeMenzies were clearly designed to detract from awkward questions surrounding 7/7.
Rubina,I see you've read the introduction - thats further than I got ! Books are written by man, & interpretations made by the same....I personally suspect that we'd all get on better if there was a Muslim "Life of Brian" ("Life of Ali" perhaps...) & we could all laugh at ourselves. Russ Nash, London: touche!
Rubina & Wahid - all very clever,but youre dropping to the same level by responding in kind.Ask the Irish,Scots,English & Welsh what they think of their own & youll get similar answers - we're all ok with coating each other off without blowing a gasket..
John, Leeds: Forgive my ignorance, but my understanding was that the English "shitted in the streets" before they were educated in the virtues of personal hygiene by their muslim colonial cousins! I dread to think what opions the fruits of your loins have. But hey, praise the Lord for teachers like me! saira,london......your comment is very stupid....."im a muslim and i want to live in peace".....what is it about this comment that you exactly dont agree with?? if i want to remember god what has that got to do with you?? please think before your reply john,leeds is another that needs education in his life.......ask the scottish,the welsh and oh yeah the irish what they really think of the English. Most muslims are not terrorists as much as most terrorists are muslims.
wajid ray. speaking of education,if you were in your beloved muslim country that you admire so much, you would still be shitting in the streets. So be grateful that the English put up with you and shut up! wajid ray i dont agree with you muslims cant live with peace without remambering allah rubina london...that comment has made my week!!! andrew scott england.....muslims that are born and bred here,were are you suggesting their home is??? sheikh tajuddin,toronto,canada....it seems to me you have no idea what your talking about....read the comments you have made,and then read my comments in my reposnse.....in fact educate yourself then come back to me. asslam-walikhum- wajid ray - yeah i do love my india .ISLAM my faith and INDIA is my country and what exactly do u wanna say about my living in canada. pakis r my brothers in the name of islam but r my enimes too it doesn't matter if u don't care about who the president of india is because this proves our secularism
Andrew Scott, England: I live in West London but was born in South London. Are you suggesting I move back there? please go home I am a BritishMuslim of East African Indain origin and who knows this may be added to in future. My loyalty to my faith in no way contrdicts my allegience to my present nationality. Similarly my being British does not stop me practising my faith with complete devotion and dedcation - al-hamdulillah. Wa Salaam Mike, Newcastle: The Quran is written in metaphors, just as the Old and New Testaments are. Humans have brains and also a free will, this is what separates us from the animals. Surely, you must have read this in the Quran. I have recently completed the Catholic Certifcate in Religious Studies. I agreed with much and disagreed with much but that does not mean that i will not live and let live. Ignorance breeds contempt. I would suggest that you read and read some more again! I see myself as a European and a Muslim, in no particular order. However, if I am asked when I am among Arabs, I often say I am an Arab. This is partly because I like teasing people, but chiefly because of the prophetic tradition that "An Arab is Arab by tongue." Most fellow Arab Muslims (or Muslim Arabs?) know this hadith, but very few accept it (in my case at least). Not that it makes the least difference, as the Prophet himself - peace be upon him - noted in his Farewell Sermon. One more thing - GK,re your IRA point, the reason people didnt ask the catholics to defend their religion/beliefs is because the bombers in that case werent using their religion as a justification - it was a nationalism issue.I dont recall anyone saying god wanted them to do it,or 70 virgins were in it for them etc.I also recall that catholic & protestant mums would march for peace.Again,all religions have their hypocrites-we just dont get upset about anyone mentioning or satirising it. The problem of identity faced by British Muslims today isn’t new. My parents continue to define themselves as Bangladeshi even tho they live & work in Britain for 35 years. Some young people define theyself by religion because they don’t see no real connection to Bangladesh or Britain. For me, I define as British citizen then Bengali/Muslim. raZer,why on earth would anyone want to speak to "PWA" ? You're a great advert for integration mate...U get me
Mike,Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. There is no such thing as West/Eastern just global! It takes some effort to learn about its truths, the way of life it espouses and understand its theology. You are not qualified to do so. Try and understand Islam from those who behave admirably & ask them to point you to the scholars they read,then look to the poets the philosophers & historians. Open your mind to the good instead of wasting your time hating and searching for 'proofs'for hate. Mike considering you have done so much research into islam...i want to ask actually how many muslims you know or have even spoke to personally...for you to conclude your findings?? It seems to me that you just consentrate on the small amount of idiots that keep saying the same jargen over and over again...there are many muslims like me who just want to live in peace. Tell you what i invite you to bimingham and into my home and will see if your findings are so correct. Rubina - Following Sept 11/01 I have bothered to read and read some-more, Koran and Sharia. There is no place in Western Societies for either!
GK I think you have an overblown opinion of yourself. Most people in Britain did not care about what someones religion was or is what they care about is people praising murders, setting off bombs and denigrading their country. As this happens to be done who define themselves as Muslim then of course people turn to that community to see what has been going on. During the IRA campaign no Hindus, Muslims, Buddists or COE were watched by police - why would they be? People want their families safe. G k,you're totally right about hypocricy-its endemic in all cultures & religions bar none.British culture/satire is fairly honest about it,at least.& at least the catholics & protestants were NOT touting their reasons as being about a war on their religion.It was a nationalist war.If groups dont wish to look inward to sort problems that are spilling outward,it cant be a surprise when the govt do.Why dont you say what you think "the real reason is"? When the IRA was most active, kneecapping, bombing and shooting remember that many of the cell members wouldn't go on missions till they had been blessed by catholic priests and some cells were even led by priests.Yet there was not the same pressure on British Catholics to defend their religon/beliefs. Why not? The pope never excommunicated them as far as I know. Why not??? & weren't many Americans funding them? Ah the hypocisy of it!!! Lets find the real reason behind the targeting of Muslims. Love of one's homeland is part of one's faith. Now who said that? Oh please people! Get a life! If you want to know what Islam is all about, then read. And read some more. Find out for yourself. Don't rely on someone else to teach you! Afterall that is what differenciates our species from other animals. as a muslim i like western stuff but at the same time islam is core to my life. push come to push i am muslim first then a paki then british u get me....
sheikh tajuddin canada.....you love your india so much<<< your living in canada makes a lot of sense...and please do elaborate on pakistan and its bad people....and who really cares about who the president of india is....is he British?? Instantly i have to say it is my love and obedience to Allah swt which defines my Muslim identity. Its not about where i was born or what I wear though these do have some influence, but not on my faith.
Russ, it is nice of you to think of me, and you are right, Islam does not subjugate women, cultures do. I love my Islam. I also respect my family and what they want for and from me. Being British and being a good daughter is hard, and I am caught in the middle. I live in a gilded cage, to protect me and my families honour, because they do not see how we can do that if I am allowed to integrate into British society. G K, the problem exists as you describe but its not just the media - a very loud minority of seemingly militant & angry "muslims" continuously try to speak for all of you.We all expect better,but its no wonder the media spout off like this when the bombs are going off & there does seem to be a lot of sympathy,if not agreement,to the cause.Reasonable people need to make themselves heard,loudly.I always wonder why theres no fatwa against the bombers ? itd make more sense than Rushdies one. As a Muslim I am not part of a ‘race’, as being Jewish would be, but this defines my ideology. I’m British born, & although my parents are from India, I think in English. I’m married to an Englishman. My marriage works because we were brought up with shared values. To take personal responsibility for one’s views to question & grapple with Islam is the way I was taught and the basis of it, academic rigour and humanity, common sense and compassion. It’s anathema to me the way the word ‘Muslim’ and ‘Islam’ are being constructed. What shocks me is that these words, so personal to me & yet so universal in embracing the widest possible ‘ummah’ are now being defined so narrowly & with such malicious ignorance. Paradoxically, it feels like these words are stealing my identity away from me, from my own control. No ignorant islamophobe has the right to tell me what I believe: ‘No I don’t believe that & yes I am a Muslim but not ‘your’ type of ‘Muslim’. How dare you claim a greater right than my own head & heart and presume to tell me what my own beliefs are!!! This is what I shout at the commentators, the experts, and the leader writers gloating and certain of their own superior intelligence and knowledge, full of bile and ignorance. I am a indian muslim living in canada,all i have to say that i love my india and i am proud of it indians and hindus are more tolerant than u think Gujrat was done by some politicians and if u think muslims r soo ill treated then tell me y are there muslims in every walk of life from cricket to films shah rukh khan , salman khan don't even think that we love pakistan we love india , india and only india do u know who is the president of india A.P.J Abdul Kalam hell with pakistan its bad people
Time to recognise where the problem is more cultural than religious.Not all muslims are like Farias family,but theres enough prepared to say that Islam doesnt subjugate women....Seems to me that its the cultural differences involved that make it true in some cases & not in others.In the meantime, what can faria do ? Russ, you do not understand how families like mine work. I get out when I am let out, I am assertive when I am allowed to be assertive. I learned to be British at school, but that is over now and the walls get higher every day. Wajid Ray - regarding the Q about what you,as a muslim need to do to integrate,the answer is obvious : the comment doesnt apply to you.It does to others (Faria) ! & Zul - Spot on mate : the bombers are causing lines to be drawn,& Al Q & the rest must be well pleased if it turns people against reasonable muslims, thus pushing reasonable muslims toward Al Q. Dont fall for it,anyone !
i do agree with you FARIA,its a great shame as our people could offer a great deal more.
message to saif. how dare you say pakistan is a disgrace at least pakistani people dont get slaughtered for practising religion i feel sorry for muslims in india who are butchered in india by hindus and still praise the infidel country. Wajid, as a British Muslim I would love to be allowed to integrate into British Society. The fact is our traditions prevent this. I am not allowed to integrate. My family expect me to stay home and hide behind my niqab if I am allowed out of the house. I will marry a man from our community not a man of my choice. If we want to integrate we have to become modern thinking and stop hiding ourselves away. This is not Islam, it is tradition. Great news for all those peace loving people in Britain..Omar Bakri one of those peddling hate has left! Hopefully the rest of his ilk, including the other facist groups like combat 18 will follow suit. All countries are just groups of people living togeather and none of us need these merchants of hate to encourage divisions. Just hope he stays away. A citizen of Britain is deemed to be British,yet I am Muslim born in India.I have qualms about saying that I am British of Indian origin.Britain and India are powerful and respected due to its constitutional strength and parliamentary process of power being vested in the hands of the people.As a citizen of Britain,i love this nation-just as my forefathers loved India.My forefathers remained in India as Indians while separatist Muslims deceived and created Pakistan.Pakistan is a disgrace. UNITY!! As upset as I may sometimes get when people filled with hate make some unjust comments, I sometimes feel so relieved and have a great sense of respect to those who stand up for such unjust actions. It is nice to know that many of those people who condemn hate are non-muslims. It makes me happy to know that many people out there would love to just live along and coexist. It doesn't matter if you are musilm, christian, jew, hindu, or whatever.If your religion teaches you love and respect.God bless this is a question for the british non/muslims...i would be gratefull if you could answer a question. people,media,government keep on chatting about how muslims need to intergrate more,adapt to the british culture etc etc. please could you tell us what we can do more to acustom to cultures and intergrate.I ask this as my white wife her family and many of my white friends dont seem to have an idea. By following what has recently been unfolding on the news, i cant believe what the extreemists are saying. They're sole target at the moment is to overthrow the British government and to set up an islamic state in uk. Anyone who justifys that statement is sympathetic to their cause. Anyone sympathetic to their cause, partially agrees. Anyone that even partialy agrees should not be in this country. How can a minority forcefully turn england, into an islamic state, over my dead body. Faria:- You are correct it is not Multiculturism, you see our politicians never asked permission of the British people as to it being wanted - and it isn't!
With the prime minister passing the so called laws to protect British people. It clearly shows the dedication and the hard work Muslims have put in and contributed to this countries economy has meant nothing. I am a Muslim police officer in the West Midlands Police. How do you think I feel? When the sole purpose for me is to serve and protect all, and yet the country I serve is now sharpening the knives and planning to destroy Islam. It is not Islam that is the evil, so why label it as if it is. I am apparently a terrorist because I wear niqab, so now I don't go out. This is not multi-culturalism. message to mic.Islam does not treat women as second class citizens just like christiantiy.You talk about women rights in islam how about the rights of women in your religion? how come women are not allowed to become leaders of the chruch? is that not treating them as second class citizens? your right there is more to british values than just boozing and clubbing i forgot you also throw your parents in a old folks home great values the bristish have! The problem with the Muslim community is with that small part of it who think of Islam as a political ideology in competition with the west, rather than a religion guiding a persons private life like Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism. Supremacists, whether religious or racial always spell trouble for community relations. the previous message was directed at mohhammed, & ws merely fr th purpose of making a point, nt spreading spite. Religion shld always come second. Because its the state and the culture which sustains your lifestyle, religion merely directs it. Without a democracy, or reinforced laws, or stable society, your views could not be revealed, it would not be even possible for you to function freely. So show some respct, & don't be so naive and cynical, you can't enforce religion on boozers, vice versa message to Anon. Your linking the british culture to boozing and throwing up. MMM nice one mate. Obviously you havn'nt explored enough. You been too busy getting your head stuck into the islam teachings. Well if your capable of criticising then you should be capable of recieving criticism. Being british is far more than what you have highlighted. I'd rather have boozing than be part of an ideology that treats women as second class citizens. Plus, don't like it, piss off. I like it so im staying To Joshua dave, Toronto. The bible cannot possibily be corrpt as in islam 1 of the 7 articles of faith is 2 believe in the Bible, as we also believe in Jesus, but the name is diff - Isa. thats all. so we have a lot more in common then terrorists would want us to believe. thats all. leaving religion aside we r all humans, which is most important. then why the need to detest each other, peace! Why would i a muslim born and bred want to be known as a "british" before mulsim. what are the british values? sex before marriage, boozing, clubbing, and then going for a curry and throwing up. no thanks my muslim values will and shall come first because they are more superior. All i got to say is the stupid ass bomber mulism and sucide bombers who ever they are ... they are just giving the rest of the muslims a bad name .. muslim women cant walk down the street cos of fear something might happen to them .... if people dont understand islam then they should just shut up and sit at home not mess other peoples lives up just piss taking if muslims hate the western world so much why do they emigrate like locusts to all the western countries,considering that muslims are a minority in the uk they seem to have a avery loud voice,just shut the fuck up and be grateful you are in a country where you have freedom of speech and benefits and running water, love it or fucking leave it I like to state to the people here who are bashing muslims or criticising. Not so long ago in the height of the british empire there ancestors oppressed much of the world even non muslim countries. now its time for the ex colonies to show its colors. Let the truth come out and the oppressors trumble in there own small world we are on the right part and they are on there last heels. Today I went to a new citizen ceromony and saw over 30 people becoing British Citizens including a number of Muslims. It is great to see people queuing up to join this great country. To those on here that don't like the British fine, a country is made up of it's people. However, why not use your freedom to contact one of the embassies of the 30 odd Muslim countries and get yourself over there. I am sure they would welcome your undoubted talents, especially as they all have net migration out. I am a Muslim, I am a woman, I am British, I am also of Pakistani ethnicity, I love being a Londoner - it is my home. To Muslims who dream of the Khilaphat - WAKE UP! I have a degree in Ottoman and Islamic history and I can assure you at no time has Islam been practised to perfection. Be grateful for your lives, be honest, hardworking - that should be the way for Muslim and non-Muslim alike. Islam is in your heart, it's your relationship with Allah but you live in Britain - respect your home. What does Britain stand for? In my opinion, Britain stands for equality, fairness, fair play, rule of law, by-the-rules approach and due process. These values help me live in safety, security and prosperity. I accept Britain for what it is. I live my life here as I wish. I have visited Bangladesh, India and Abu Dhabi and I can safely say that I wouldn’t want to live in any of those Muslim countries. Imran - pot calling the kettle black or what ! A stunning avoidance of "detentions","military adventures" & "draconian laws" in muslim countries. Ive many great muslim friends & acquintances, but if youve got a problem with our "crumbling ideals",why dont you sod off to somewhere more spiritually appropriate,where you can stone unbelievers & publically flog transgressors to your hearts content ? I'm with Sabiha Choudhry : fanaticism is wrong !!!! I was born English, to English parents but now I consider myself a Muslim first. The country of my birth is second and my first loyalty is to my fellow Muslims wherever they are from. i am sick of the argument that blair and many irresponsible memebers of the media have used that the bombers were a attack on western civilization.
terrorism and islam.. for any one who linking terr. to islam,i am afraid that you are wrong and iam sorry to say you arenot broad minded.do you know or read any information approaching true islam?i donot think so.if u need 2 know information about true islam, u have 2 carfully select ur sources.if u need to know about terrorism you have ur history.u have a great movie named as "kingdom of heaven"...to be continued I’m ashamed that some deluded young Muslims thought that they had nothing to live for and blew themselves up, killing many innocents besides. These people had no love for their own lives then how can they love and respect the lives of others? Fanaticism is wrong. Fullstop. Sabah, Do us all a favour and go and get yourself an Education. It is pathetic bitter little individuals like you that are trying to give the majority of decent Muslims a bad name. Grow up! a lot of people talk of british customs,and british culture, and british this and that...yet been a born and bred brummie,also serving time within the british army, i have yet to see what is british culture,customs are and offer,besides binge drinking,anti social behaviour what else is there. am i missing something??? Anon Anon Of Saudi writes lies and you print it - Another example of the 'Deceit' of the unbeliever as proscribed by the Koran.
My identity is my own business. It’s not for governments or other self-proclaimed busybody interest groups to tell me who I am. Who am I? I am a (fairly) good and decent person trying to make a living and I belong to others of the same attributes regardless of religion, politics and race.
DEAR MY MUSLIM BROTHERS
I have lived in Scotland all my life. I have Muslim and Christian friends from school and work but have always been brought up in a "Muslim" environment at home. I don't hang out with my Christian froends because they always go to pubs and smoke and drink. There are social differences between us which can never be overcome. Despite this I have never been the victim of any serious racial abuse in Glasgow in thirty years and I haec to say that I think I'm a Glaswegian more than Muslim. I agree very much with Alishba. I think that many of our idle, young and impressionable Muslims don’t know how hard life is back in Muslim countries. You can’t say and do the things that you want. If only they knew then they would be more appreciative of the rights, freedoms and material privileges that they enjoy in this country. I find that many young Muslims drawn to Islam are drawn politically and not spiritually. We have to draw Islam in this country away from thinking about foreign conflicts 1000 miles away and more to focus on happenings in Britain. To Mo from London you are WRONG, there are many christians in saudi Arabia, all over the country living a very high standard life. they go to churches, live the way they want to and practise what they wanto. so before you make assumptions, get your facts right! if muslims have their rights in the west (which i am glad of and earnestly have NOTHING against non-muslims at all) non-muslims enjoy life and have their rights in muslim countries too!!! Why are muslims so racist to their christian hosts.I am a muslim living in Britain, and can never be thankful enough to the British people for allowing me into their wonderful country. Since coming here i have been on invalidity benefits, my entire financial wellbeing is catered for by the british people. If my muslim brothers and sisters could only find the courage to accept how lucky they are to be allowed to stay here. P.S. KHALID is the most ungrateful child i have never known. WHY ARE ALL OF YOU MUSLIMS ACTING LIKE VICTIMS?HOW YOU'RE NOT ACCEPTED IN OUR SOCIETY WHEN WE ALLOW FOR YOU TO BUILD MOSKS & PRATICE YOUR BELIEFS?YOU DESCRIMINATE AGAINST YOUR SELF & SEPERATE YOURSELF BY LOOKING DOWN ON NON-BELIVERS.I REFUSE TO LIVE MY LIFE BY A RULE BOOK & REFUSE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT NOT DOING SO.NO BODY KNOWS WHY WE'RE HERE & WE NEVER WILL THAT'S WHAT MAKES LIFE SO INTERESTING & KEEPS US GOING TILL THE END.WHY LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR SOMETHING YOUR PARENTS TAUGHT YOU JUST LIKE MINE All religions are invented by people and ALL are based on superstition, wishful thinking fear and gullibility. The only hope for the world is rational humanism. I AM NATIVE INDIAN FROM CANADA AND ALL THE BRITISH PEOPLE SAYING THAT MUSLIMS ARE IMMIGRANTS AND SHOULD GO BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRYS , WHAT ABOUT CANADA THIS IS A NATIVE LAND AND YOU BRITISH PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN THIS LAND YOU SHOULD GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY. YOUR JUST AS MUCH IMMIGRANT AS ANY BODY ELSE LIVING HERE IN CANADA. MUSLIMS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO LIVE WHERE EVER THEY PLEASE BECAUSE YOUR LIVING IN A LAND OF NATIVES. AND I AM PROUD TO BE A NATIVE CANADIAN. To the ignorant masses: Islam invented democracy. Vote for the one you want. Unfortunately, it is man for whatever reason chooses to impose his beliefs on the masses and the sheep just follow. Eduate yourselves. There is no such thing as Islam vs the Western Civilisation'. Propaganda breeds ignorance and ignorance breeds contempt. Where does the term 'British Muslim' come from. I am born and bred in the UK. I am a Muslim. I do not describe myself as a British Muslim, just as my Christian and Jewish friends do not describe themselves as 'British Christian' or 'British Jew'. Take away my hijab and you would never question my identity. gentleman and ladies. here is the rub..if we become a muslim country then muslims will not have the freedom to express the many facetts of their religion. One group will dominate and the rest will be Kafir. Muslims, your choice, the freedom you have here or the life your people live in the Muslim world. Of course the Wahibbi and salafi would want you to fight us but do you want them to rule over you or do you wish to rule your own lives?
To say i am british would be wrong as what we need to look at what does being british mean. British values are what make you british, all british values are based on freedom, this comes from the secular creed.Detaching religion from life and maximising ones freedom is what makes you british.How can i as a muslim accept such values when allah swt does not allow for me to detach my relationship with him from my life. I have to have complete obediance to him.
Ex-pat comments : Being in a foreign country also means you respect their customs. The vast majority of ex-pats adhere to local customs when integrating with the residents of that country. They certainly wouldnt mess in the political process.
I am intriged as to why UK Muslims view any action or perceived wrong against a Muslim country or people as an attack on thier brotherhood, yet ignore inter Muslim conflict or tensions that seem commonplace in Muslim lands e.g Sunni V Shia in Iraq and Arab v African in Darfur. Does this simplified and romanticised view of the 'brotherhood' help or hinder the identity of UK Muslims? It appears more Muslims than non Muslims kill other Muslims and that this is conveniently overlooked. we should start thinking outside the box..one country, if we chose to be here or not, lets stand up for what we believe in..regardless of colour, race or religon. Whats with exploring your identity as British Muslim, why not explore your british identity? i myself am a roman catholic and i have certainly never had to explore my identity as a British Catholic...i am British and dam proud! surely you should feel the same? man i'm stunned by this... I fear that due to the terrorist acts and feeling of being hard done by within the youth ranks/young men of the Muslim world that there will be an almighty backlash on all Muslims good and bad. The terrorists acts by Muslim extremists is fueling the fire and giving just cause to many who feel they are being attacted. I am a service man. I have been to most of the Gulf. Britain is
Tara Feshitan, London, United Kingdom:-
You need to sort your house out. End this nonsence. Forget Jihad You will lose. Our bombs are much bigger than yours. Do not wake the great satan. You will not like it. The comments on this site clearly illustrate the urgent need for young British Muslims to decide whether or not they are loyal to Britain and willing to live in our multicultural country according to it’s laws, customs and culture. If anyone (Muslim or NonMuslim) feels unable to accept this, then they should show the courage of their convictions and up sticks and live elsewhere. If you live here you must accept what this country stands for. Simple as. ok fair enough there have been muslim extremist, but lets not go on about it like they are the only terrorists around, the soldiers in iraq, why are they there?they are killing and torturing people there.
"Mike, Newcastle, UK": Your comments merely reflect your own ignorance and xenophobia.When I walk down the street no doubt my "race" is seen first, but my identity is more than just a colour.I was born to Nigerian Muslims in London and have lived here all my life. Home is London, England and I am a loud and proud British,English Muslim of Nigerian origin.As a result of colonialism there are many black, brown and yellow skinned English men and women living in England so get used to it! I think of my main identity as a British citizen by birth. I consider my mother tongue to be English and I am perfectly at home in Britain. I am also Sylheti Bengali by ethnic group and a Sunni (Hanafi) Muslim by faith but these have really a secondary bearing on my behaviour and outlook on life.
This is earth to friggin TRACY from the great USA.....i presume you have not heard of Northern Ireland and how they have bombed the UK for over 30 years,,or does that not count because they were not muslims, and did not actually attack your country, oh yeah i remember your Irish american friends actually supported these guys to try and destroy britain....its so easy to judge without thinking, dont you think TRACY. And were they not catholics, and white or are you going to blame al-qaeda for that Why are we working towards extreme religious identities when the rest of the world is focusing on "national identities"? I regard myself as a British Punjabi Muslim, because just muslim or asian or pakistani is not accurate. Those identities are either religious or political only but i think my mother tongue and country of birth best describes me i am proud to be a Punjabi Briton. Mike from Newcastle: Never forget that immigrants as well as Muslims are the bedrock of the UK's social, moral and economical development. Without the influence of the Arabs, most of Europe would probably still be shitting in earth holes.
"Tara Feshitan, London, United Kingdom"
..."No other religious group or ethnic group has gone through this, since 9/11, every muslim has to prove him/herself"... earth to friggin mecca....can someone please direct me towards another religious group or ethnnicity bombing the bejesus out of the western world? In the honest words of Abdel Rahman al-Rashed of the Al-Arabiya news channel: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim" I find all this talk of i'm a this i'm a that nausiating! Pure Chimera! So pathetic... you think these are anything other than artificial constructs? Even race or ethnicity is total artifice. Beliefs systems more obviously so. You people are just so boring. Just out of boredom i think we should all kill ourselves. Stop taking life so bloody seriously. Drama Queens. This is just a soap opera! Bloody Greek Tragedy...boohoo... life goes on... money talks... go make some... then rule the world. I believe that Imams need to actively discourage youth training and joining Jihad. This has not been done so far. I now see a lot of websites proclaiming "we have changed our mind about Jihad". By implication, it was generaly supported, but now you all know you have to denounce it or face deportation or prison. I am fairly disgusted about how complacent British Muslims seem to have been. Imams are now reaping wat they have sown in a country that they have had it so good in. With the ww2 remembered i ask all of u even ones who have hate towards muslims. Do you want to see a repeat of the world war 2? want to repeat the horrors of the war we saw in the past or do we have a chance to succeed in making a last hope for peace. I am muslim and proud yet i feel that people all sides have been hurt. remember the past and ask ur selves do we want this happen again.... Do not continue to talk about British muslims. The British people are either Irish, English, Scotish or Welsh, you muslims will never be part of our civilised community. Who am I? I am a muslim, a Nigerian,I am British, I am English and I am a Londoner.Am I confused? No.I have no alternative but to embrace all these aspects of my being and to thank Allah for this unique experience as a muslim woman in Britain. The terrorist bombs in London have shocked me to the core and I despair at the fact that there are muslims like me who have succumbed to evil and used violence against their fellow British citizens. It is our duty as muslims to stamp out this evil. maria fron london lol u find it hard to believe lastest findinds polls show more muslims practice in there mosques then ur so called good christians bother leave the pub to go to church i think some slow ppl need education namely you. Our hearts & prayers are with everyone directly affected.
Hello to all readers,iam from ireland and convert to islam 2years.what happened in london one week from today is not an act of islam or muslim ie islam is a religion meaning peace not war.in islam it is FORBIDDEN to kill oneself or humankind. it would be nice if people think before ye speak.muslims died too.I would not call myself an irishmuslim im irish and my religion is islam.to all those famlies whos mother son daughter etc my sympathy goes to u all. My identity is British citizen. I live in this country. I have family in this country. I support this country. These evil criminal bombers could have killed me or my family just as much as those innocents they did kill. My point is that the bombs didn’t discriminate between Muslim or NonMuslim, Black or White, Bangali or Indian. So we shouldn’t let these bombers and their ideology of hate to triumph by turning on each other and blaming and finger pointing. I class myself as human, not sure about the rest of you people. I wouldnt say im religous as we are all Gods in our own right.
Having read all of the messages, I am not sure 100% where I stand a white anglo saxon, but whayt I do know is that I do not expect to be blown up on my way to work. My taxes pay for all sorts of things which I may not believe in but I do not kill because of it. I have many friends of different religion and colour but we do not fight, we talk. If however you want to fight, terrorism is a cowards way, and those people reap what you sow. If young muslims feel disaffected you should talk for change. Why is it when it comes to muslims we have to prove our loyalty to a particular country and its customs or culture? No other religious groups or ethnic group has had gone through this, since 9/11, every muslim has to prove him/herself. Western countries claim they are free and fair yet they have to make sure everyone fits the ranks, why? True freedom is those whose choose to be individuals, why is it muslims are not allowed to be individuals? Democracy should breed diveristy, but not in the west Britain is a land of equality and tolerance. British Muslim peoples should use the tragedy of 7/7 to come to terms with the country, culture and laws of the country they live and work in. The widely held beliefs of Islamic supremacist ideology among younger Muslim men of Arab and Pakistani origin can only be challenged and contained from within the Muslim community. I would like to see some open debate and self criticism within Muslim ranks. Rather than knee-jerk robotic condemnations of terrorist atrocities, often accompanied by ‘qualifications’ eg. the perception among a significant minority of Muslim youth that Britain ‘deserved’ the attacks because of foreign policy decisions in Israel/Palestine, Iraq and elsewhere. The problem with muslims is they have no identity.The youth are that thick that they have to steal fashion from the blacks.they have an attitude problem because they know they are so inferior to the whites.If they are so in love with the muslim way of life then they should go back to where their ancestors came from. Recently the editor of the Muslim News said in an interview with the BBC, "see some of the comments on our website forum". So I came here to see for myself.
To believe that the only way you can be English is to be Christian is such an unbelievabley blinkered view (take note Dave, Coventry). You are a product of your environment and your perceptions are shaped by your interactions with it. Britishness is ingrained in all of us who are born here and so can never be removed or transcended. The recent bombings were crimes against Brits not Whites, Blacks, Muslim or any other sub-classification you care to mention. The 'I was born here, I'm not leaving' line is of interest. That is, like all things, entirely dependent on the goodwill of the majority in society, and not personal will. As countries go, the UK is pretty tolerant and embraces a wide spectrum of beliefs and actions. But there are limits to what is a tolerable belief and they are NOT set by the believer. There IS a point at which ALL residents have to adhere to the common good. It's not down to hopeful whim, backed up by religious belief. How can we work together for peace?How can we learn to mutually celebrate our diversity rather than be threatened by each other.Is there an event that I could share in? Our common humanity demands that we should do something. Evil thrives when good men do nothing. Show me what to do to end this evil.I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A WILL amongst the ordinary men and women of this country. dont try an impose your veiws on us this is britain if you dont like our way of life go home to your ancesters country You really must try harder - look up the meaning of the word 'Phobia' and ask yourselves 'why does no one in the Western world want you in their country, and I emphasise 'Their Country' be it Sweden - Holland - Denmark - France - Germany - New Zealand - Australia - The USA - Canada etc etc. the only places for you is in an Islamic State, why do you not want to be in one, WHY? with comments i seen from nicola from manchestersounds very progressive and stupid comments by this shawn from london means we still have indesirables means we have a long road ahead to counter the hate filled right wingers who are a menace to society. do nothing but find reasons to hate others. i wonder if he had something do with any hate crimes? The events that took place on 7 July was horrifying. Although I now live in Dubai, I am a 100% Londoner where ever my work takes me heart will always be in London no other city like it in the world. It was amazing seeing Londoners continuing their daily lives & not letting the terrorist win by being scared. Let us unite as one, which our communities have built over so many years, not to be divided by a stupid minority... there is always other ways of portraying your message & violence is not one of them.x I accept the good points many commentators have made but I refuse to believe those who say that Islam means peace and all that rubbish. This is ridiculous! How do you think Islam was spread in the first place? How the 'Pagans' of Saudi Arabia were convinced? Just by sheding tons of blood of course! At the least don't deny this. i just wanted to say that i’m a british citizen first and bangali muslim second. After the events of 7 july I don’t think any objective british muslim will credibly claim that there aren’t deep-rooted problems within our communities in britain. we need to take back our religion from the extremists and hatemongers so that islams name wont be blackened further. its us muslims in britain who will be most harmed by these sad events. so it’s up to us to stand up to troublemakers. To all Muslims that were born here, you should consider yourselves as British.. Being british does not mean you have to be Christian at all, it is about accepting people regardless of their colour, gender and belief. I really feel British people are tolerant seeing that we have so many cultures living and working alongside each other. There are good and bad in every society and together we can stand up against the small minority on all sides intent on destroying our communities. The meaning of Islam is Peace, surrender,pure.....So when individuals fight in the name of Islam this is pure ignorance and such people are only doing it for their pride and ego. It has nothing to do with Islam.
I so much agree with Dr. Navidul Haq Khan. It does not matter where you are as long as you know your limits and views are not interrogated by the state you living in. I do not see any british law stopping us from practising our faith or condeming or imposing any christian branding on us(unlike India) We are not forced to go Church or celebrate Xmas nor have the British forbidden us from building mosques or islamic schools. All of you muslims and non-muslims, you are ALL forgetting one thing, we are ALL first and foremost HUMAN BEINGS!!! Fighting each other because one believes one thing and the other something else just shows how unintelligent everyone are.
There is no such thing as a British muslim.Great Britain is and has been for 2000 years a christian nation,we have the bloodied red cross of St-George n the lord Jesus Christ on OUR flag.To be British is to be a Christian,you people are not British and never will be.you are muslims who've flooded over here from other far away places on the same planet.so please be proud of who you are and where ever is was you originally came from.I'm a English guy ok ,...no matter where i go ,ill always be me I'm an English revert to Islam.
As a muslim,it doesn't matter where i am or where i came from but what matters is this i can practace my religon here.I feel my views can be shared and heard by others,there are some many other religons and cultures living around London, and it's good to see everyone getting along with on another,repecting one anothers religons.I am proud to see my fellow muslims who are and have made this their home.I can only thank Allahtallah that we all reamin united, where ever we may be around the world. i don’t think there is anything wrong with muslims identifying with their homeland; ethnic and national roots. nationalism and ethnic pride are powerful emotions. the only problem is if nationalism is taken to extremes but the same can be said for taking islam or any religion to it’s extrems and doing unislamic acts in the name of islam. nationalism and racism should not be confused. islam and terrorism shouldn’t be confused. to all the people who are so against muslims living in uk should remember that there is also non muslims who live in islamic countires around the world. and no one says to them to leave the country because of their religion. it might be hard for some let me tell you all that muslims are here to stay like or not as it is a free country after all. i really don't understand some of the white British population as they are the ones who always go on about giving rights and having freedom. I class my self as a walsh-muslim(Bangladeshi).I belive the land i am living its my duty to support which is wales.Sports wise the same.and I feel proud that as a first elected muslim county councillor in cardiff city, i am reoresenting the Bme, muslim, walsh etc.communitty.its very interesting work for the community. I am a revert to islam living in Britain. One of the things that attracted me to islam,was being freed from the tyrrany of having to identify with a man-made geographical area, and being welcomed by a world-wide muslim brotherhood. The prophet (saw) said that this Ummah is one, and its war is one. He (saw) said that the believers are like one body and when one part of it suffers, the rest of it stays awake with worry.
What makes me despair is the fact the someone thought of the phrase British muslim. How can I be muslim and British?
I identify myself as a woman who abides by Ahkam Sharriyah, I am a muslim. Nationality is of no
What reaaly defines my Identity in the UK, is the fact that I am a muslim and what makes me feel proud of living in Britain is that it means I feel secure about my future Alhamdulillah. I support the Pious, good people who want to make the world a better place, I don't like people criticsing my Identity or my lifestyle as a strict muslim Alhamdulillah. Home is Family, College, Work, Career. I see nothing wrong with being called British Muslim. However Islam will always come first, on the Day of Judgement nationality will be irrelevant. I am glad to live in this country where our freedom and rights are protected. Many muslim nations do not allow freedom and violate human rights. I think Britain is right to be policing Iraq but hopefully soon they will have no more cause to stay there. I think that if people (muslim and nonmuslim) spent less time worrying about their many identities and perceived ‘threats’ and more on following the strictures of their religion and culture then the world would be a much better place. Discrimination and ignorance is rampant on both sides of this discussion. To be British is simply to be a citizen of the United Kingdom. People (human beings on earth) should not be judged on either a minority or majority behaviour but on their individual values within society. Do I follow islam? No. But I believe that children should respect their elders, that we should always lend a helping hand to those less fortunate than ourselves and that we should lead our lives with dignity and pride. Allah (swt) defines mankind as two; believers and non-believers. I live in accordance to this definition;I am Muslim first and Muslim last. I consider the geographical area we call "Britain", land created by God. The problem is that the ruling system is not from Allah but based upon Man's desires and whims. Everyday, in my prayer, I say "Nobody is worthy of worship but Allah and Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah" - this testification must be paramount in the way Muslims think and act. I don’t have a problem with other peoples identity; so long as they respect mine. I live and work in Britain. Even though I’m Muslim, I am greatly influenced by British culture in the way I dress, eat, socialise and see the world. When I visit my parents ancestral home in Sylhet I can see that Muslims there are different from me and treat me in another way. So I would say that I’m probably British first, but that doesn’t make me any the less Sylheti or Muslim. I’m proud of my identity in it’s entirety. I am a born British that reverted to Islam, I am a British Muslim, I identify myself as a messenger of the divine, I am proud to be a muslim living in britiain and am proof of the rejection of western values and its evils.
muhammed zubair, Bolton, United Kingdom said at the bottom that englsh culture consists of booze,fags ecstacy etc...
first i am muslim.secondly iam a somalian.thirdly i am british . every muslim must know we belong to one ummah. and our ummah comes before everything . we will always remain second class citezens and will never be given the same stand or voice in society as the english people.we have far less opportunities than them. i am a british pakistani and i am 16 years of age.i believe that on whatever part of the world you choose to reside,you should never forget or neglect your roots and culture.that is your true identity.your true identity is not the superficial things that we see around us in this western world.we belong somewhere and we should be proud of that rather than trying to belong to a culture that is not our own.there is racial discrimintaion in all parts of society even if we try to avoid the truth. Identity has a lot to do with familiarity. I am British-born to Bangladeshi parents and I identify most with this country. I would be totally out of my place in Bangladesh or any other Muslim country. What is my Identity? It is a question of a Million or Billion or more, I suppose. My identity, as well as others I understand, is influenced with a number of factors and is the strong feeling I have at the deep of my heart which is a result of my interaction with my parents, education, socio-religious background and my own values and faith. It is difficult to confine myself to a single Identity. I was born in India, so I love India, I worked in Oman so I love Oman, now am working in UK and I I'm a revert to Islam and I'm also proud to be British. As a non-Muslim country it can be difficult to practice your religion but at the same time, it's up to your own interpretation of how to be a good Muslim without it being imposed by the state. For example I am attending a local college where I am training to be a midwife and I also wear hijab, the college has allowed me to go to prayers when needed and also to wear hijab. Being Muslim doesn't stop me enjoying sport and I love football I beleive that if you are a full practising muslim then you should be happy just calling yourself a muslim.nationality is totally a secondaryissue and doesnt matter atall,compared to first and foremost being proud of being a muslim.dont know what all the fuss is about.if your proud to follow the faith of islam then nationality should be way down your list of concerns. pride as a muslim should come first. and 2nd generation need to wear symbols to show that theyre muslims as cant tell if hindu. Assalamuailaikum,
I totally despair the fact that im living in britain, racism all around me, an useless goverment. i am british born but i will always call home my bangladesh. How can we, muslims be proud of living in a country that totally hates us? the only reason im still here is because its not easy leaving your work and family and moving to another country! A few years ago I would have said that I was British Pakistani and technically I am but my feelings have changed dramatically. Now I am just a Muslim and it feels that there is no safe place for us anywhere. I am horrified at what is going on with the abuse of the legal system, especially in the case of Babar Ahmad. I now feel like an outsider and fear for my children and family growing up in this society which lacks any morals and decent role models. The ed system and news create division. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim (submitting to Allah). And he was not of the polytheists. (Quran, 3:67)
Identity is based upon the unique set of values you hold, we as muslims should not be simplistic and limit this debate to geographical location. An earlier comment paid attention to this when they said the colonialist when conquering muslim lands did not gel into the host society but tried to mould that society with their values. Allegiance to king and country. We as muslims shouldn't british values of secularism and freedom. We should base our identity upon the islamic ideology in everything i would consider that all the great muslims living in britain are doing a great job of carrying the message of peace around to others. keep at it islam is a releigion of peace. I am British & a Christian,but it's never occured to me to call myself a British-Christian.I suppose it can be taken to be defining a type of Christianity, which is not the case.My Britishness does not impact on my Christian faith,eg enjoying a good cup of tea and understanding queues!A number of things listed here as British values-adultery, drunkeness,drugs etc I absolutely do not adhere to.This does not mean I am less British.I bring my values to British society not the other way round. In response to (Mike,Newcastle) and Islam being an import therefore cannot be considered as being British. I cannot think of any one of the worlds 'mega-faiths' that has not been imported to Britain - or to Europe as a whole. it is really interesting this whole debate. I only sense a huge threat for the Western civilisation. now things are balanced, but I wonder what will happen in the future... say 2-3 generations... Hello. I would say that I'm a practicing muslim and a loyal British Citizen. I feel grateful that I am able to practise my religion in a country which allows this. My aim in life is to be a good muslim and follow the five pillars of Islam. That is what I live for. But each time there is interference, I struggle to achieve this, and I feel sad that there is now hatred for muslims since 9/11. My parents taught me to be a good muslim and that is what I will aim for insha allah. "m.Abaas, London, United Kingdom
If you live in this country and take up British nationality, you are loyal to Britain. It doesnt matter what your religion is.If you want to be Muslim,go back to where you came from - simple as that. In response to (Abdul, Castle Bromwich) - ellaborate on me not being a proper Muslim... and representing a cruel British Army? Also are you suggesting that only Asians are proper Muslims?? As my brother who recently went to Haaj said he was praying together when many people of different ethnic backgrounds. Sounds to me that you need educating in religion instead of spreading your narrow minded thoughts!! What has colour of skin got to do with religion??? Hello,
Why can so many people not understand the fact that in this world there are people who are good and equally people who are bad.These people can be of any creed,colour,religion or nationality.Being a muslim doesn't immediately make you a good person,the same way that being a non-muslim doesn't make you a bad person.As a muslim born in Britain I believe that tolerance is the key.Tolerance for all religions & nationalities.I'm poud of being born in Britain & the freedom this brings & of my religion I think religion is a persons own faith it has nothing to do with anyone else unless its subversive to the national security..I'm a white christian who welcomes our friends from overseas,working together made the uk great .all through our history we have had mainly good relations with muslim peoples and lets face it the uk has had a mix of races and faiths for over a 1000 years .. I don't think that I can define myself! It just isn't possible at the moment. It's very easy to come out with a definition but in the long run it just doesn't stick!
I am a non muslim but I have some muslim friends around the UK. We talk about everthing on religion/culture/sport and others. Since 9/11 I received lots of messages in chat, insert Message and others. I making new friends cos I got some excellent muslim friends.
I view myself as A Msulim Bangladeshi British. In terms of sports, i never support England when they are playing - I dont know why, but I always support the opposition. As sister Marium (E.londn) says all of the lands were created by Allah for one reason which is to be used for worship. Now being "British" and "Muslims” are two different things.
asSalaam wrb.
Muslims should be proud of their religion. We can live in the UK and still practice our religion and stay within the law. There are no laws that i am aware of that makes us do something which is prohibited in Islam. The trouble is we are not acting according to our religion and some of us are no different from certain section of the indigeneous community with the way we lead our lives. My loyalty lies with Islam, and no one else. I chose to live by commands and prohibitions of my creator Allah swt, and not the laws of man. So if being British means being loyal to its laws, or to adorn the British culture, then no way am British. I don't support the British troops. I don't support the secular framework i live in. Clearly discussion of what it means to be British is warranted to identity ones identity. It would seem that quite a few of you have the right idea. Living over here in a peaceful muslim country I would say that most of the people I know here know what they are about. They are proud to be human, they are muslim by faith not by obligation. These people recognise that there are many faiths and many believe in the one God (even Christians). Time to wake up - God or no, we all die and the same thing happens to us all after death. If there is a Creator, it will turn its back on no-one! United kingom accomodates all other religionists just like other western christian countries. But all other people except muslims lie in peace,assimilting well with the british customs. But the muslims are the troble makers not only here, but in all west and amercian countreis. After Sep 11. the whole West including USA and canada and Austrlia hate these people and they deserve this because they condemn the very people who gave them refuge by stating 'bible is corrupt,adn islam will rule world I am a yong muslim,living in britain, i hold a british passport, but my mum comes from bangladesh so I also have a bangladeshi nationality. I dont belong to any contry but i have the right to say i'm a natinal in every country coz all of this belongs allah[swt]. all the land was given to mankind to be used for worship of allah. Man is weak,man likes to cause divition in order to gain power and wealth. At this moment in time my identity is only muslim and thats all... not british nor bangladeshi. We should be thankfull that we are muslims as we will go to jannah. Should it matter what whether I'm british or not. Islam is viewed as a threat, because islam has the ability for everyone to be equal, equal in wealth,power etc. Like it was in the time of the prophet. so I would say I'm not british or bangladeshi. My identity is Muslim no mater what it says on my passport or my Birth certificate.
I hate this 'them' vs 'us' and 'us' vs 'them' attitude.
Assalamu'alaikum,
As muslims resident in this country let's all say Alhamdu Lilla! and reflect deeply on the condition of our Umma. We do a great disservice to our faith by saying the wrong things ! Some christians attack other faiths, many do not. Some British (and Australian) ppl attack other cultures, many do not. Some muslims attack other ppl, many do not. Let's not make the mistake of thinking the word of the few reflects the wishes of the many. So-called "leaders" often misrepresent the views/aspirations of their followers. One day, and I hope it will be soon, ordinary people will stand up and condemn these "leaders". We have more in common than they would have us believe.... hello
it seems to me you dont like living in this country (mohammed,reading,uk),with your ill words,the quran also states that people-muslims must also live by the law of the land they are residing in. im not saying that what the usa-uk have done is right but what do you want us to do arm ourselves and go out killing non-muslims. So i suggest you go to an islamic country and air your silly views there..see how long your tongue stays in your mouth. salaam i dont think of myself as british muslim but just muslim-i was born in aland called britian whoes agenda is aganist muslims-we muslims are ill we see our brothers and sisters being killed by uk and usa we do nothing. we rather have man made laws than allahs law .may allah give victory to mujhadeens-defeat usa after reading many comments from people saying muslims must go back to their own countries....i wish to point out that the reason for you people breathing the air you breath and having free speech, is because of the men and women that fought in the world wars, i must also mention that 2million men from india were at that war many of whom were muslims fighting for the union jack, as a ex british soldier, i love this country,but you want me to intergrate into your culture your way of life....why? Remember I am a HUMAN BEING and I try my best to be muslim (not a muslim). I find out how to be muslim by reading the-god's book(the quran). If you want to find out what muslim is supposed to be, first read the quran BY USING SCIENTIFIC analysis. If you are having problems then find out how the first human to recieve the quran lived his life. Who do I think I am? I am a human, who tries best to follow the will of "the god" (muslim), who also lives on the planet called Earth, in the region of Great Britain, which is part of the EU. And whos parents were born in the region of Pakistan. I respect the womb(s) that bore me, and I have a debt towards them. Praises be to those people who use their intelligence((un)like many (non-)muslims), rather than their hearts or what their parents before then said. I support those who deserve/need it. The fact is that those of us born in the UK are British regardless of our parental origin. Islam has never been against culture, rather it has enhanced culture. The history of the Muslims is testimony to this even until this day. Over 1 billion Muslims live on Earth in over 50 countries traversing all the continents. Each of them possess their own cultures, their own lifestyles which conform to that of the land. Our need here in the UK is to understand and comprehend this. You people are always moaning about racism, discrimination, bigotry, etc. Most British nationals would have no complaints about immigration if you would only integrate into our society. You come over here and try to change our culture. It is getting to be a crime to be white and British.If you live in Britain then you should abide by British laws (not Islamic laws). Attend British schools, learn our language. Be, and act, British. If you cannot do that, then go and live in an islamic state. hi-what is wrong with everyone out there-being a muslim has no relationship/connection in being british-2 completely different-1 is religion and the other nationality-so please dont mix them up.for those of you who feel that they cannot practice their faith in UK rather than be a hypocrite move to a country which allows u to practice freely-no compulsion for u to stay-but u choose too- we all have a choice-but by living in the UK we not only contradict ourselves but are hyprocites too. Some people have been saying why Muslims don't move to a different country like Afganistan. If we did we would probebly be killed by the troops.
wow! what a debate? i am a 30yr muslim,i have read all the comments on here(i must be sad) and agree with all but 5% of them,most of you have a valid point be you muslim or not, my view is live and let live,WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES.LEARN FROM THEM.am sure some good will come out of it,learn about other peoples religions and ways of life, respect them,you cant tar everyone with the same paintbrush? respect and salaam to ALL. Why should Britain continue to have muslims here when they do nothing but moan and groan about the British way of life. If they dont like it here, go and live in a muslim country, they will be happy there and we will be happy that they have gone back to the dark ages, which is what they seem to like.
There has been some comforting comments made above. I am a Cristian and was curious as to the veiws of Muslims in the UK. If you look at the history of this land there has always been a mixture of cultures and faiths. It is that which made us who we are. Most religions have a common ground, a sence of good human principles. It is time for us all to find common ground and for Muslims Chritians jews, infact all religions to come together as one and sort this world out. God be with us all. The most important thing is your Islamic identity because you can choose to be a Muslim, you can't choose where you are born. We need to look at what Britain represents before we adopt it as an identity and to make sure that it doesn't contradict our belief. I know that I don't feel part of a drinking culture, colonialism the freedoms this country pushes that allow homosexuality.
I am a British Muslim and proud of it. To all those muslims who find it torturous living with 'fish and chips' and the 'kafir' society - please emigrate to a muslim country. It is your duty as so called 'proper' muslims. Go and bring about the muslim renaissance in those countries - I'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms (!) Salam.. as I understand being muslim is submission to Allah and submission to state reguardless if its Britian,Pakistan,Saudi is shirk. This no way mean that i cannot be a vauable contributor to society. I dont want my children to suffer from nationalistic pride or embrassment.The Prophet saw taught us that no arab is superiour to a non arab and we are all equal when we atand before Allah swt except in our deeds and taqwah. As a Caribbean muslim am looking forward to visiting Britan one day. I am a muslim, I am British, born and raised. My family are white English. England is my home and I love it. I love the food, roast dinners and cottage pie. People are usually nice. I dont really like sport so I dont support anyone, but of course if England are playing I wish them well. Just hope that Britain never becomes like France and bans the hijab because I would hate to think my country,the only one I know would take away my rights. But Inshallah it will never happen there is only 1 religion in the whole world that doesnt support war in anyway way whatsoever, in otherwords, kill a life for land etc or any other reason..... and that is jehovahs witnesses, they have and still do go to prison rather fight or kill. the identifying mark of people who love god is love for fellow man without exception I am British and proud to be. I also happen to be muslim I have never had a problem with either of these things. Muslims need to wake up and realise that out forefathers came to this country for a better way of life not to make this into some islamic state. The freedoms we enjoy in this country would never be granted to us by the so called islamic countries. On the other hand the the wider community believes the muslim community lives off the state - well thats true for the Pakistani community This to me is a very intresting concept. I have no religion thus can not define myself as you seek to. I do not see myself as 'British' either, but I am Welsh not because I was born here but because that is where I am at. Welsh Muslim, British Muslim does not kind of make sense? There are many people who practise Islam in Cardiff but I just see Welsh people :-) Lack of able to follow Islamic Shariah in divorce, Child Custody & Access.
'Muslim' defines my relationship with God. 'British' defines my relationship with my co-habiters of this country. The two are not mutually exclusive. On various points I differ with the predominant English/British view, on others I differ from mainstream Islam (as represented by the views here).
I'd like to respond to Eugene from London. I wish you were correct that there were only English muslims, however, I can assure you that there exists (unfortunately) many Scottish muslims, as well as Scottish christians, Scottish buddhists etc. Scotland may have devolution but we are still a part of Britain. kaye, iam was born in england so i have evry right to stay maybe you should take your rascist views and go to to the south pole and not come back until you enter the modern times.
I am a white athiest female who has been married to a muslim man for many years and we have a dughter too who is muslim. I choose to teach my child all about her asian origins and it is myself who teaches her the right and wrong in Islam. I feel it is vitally improtant that she knows who and what she is. She is muslim but also beautiful, kind and - most importantly - respectful of all religions, race,coour and creed. I consider myself muslim, that's it. i dont see nationality, just faith. faith is our identity, our identity is submission, submission means ignoring all kinds of labels and just practicing Islam. i am a british muslim but my true identity will never change my culture land is pakistan and i am a muslim who believes in islam but however islam has taught us to respect all other religions and non muslim beleievers as they are gods human made beings too.
As far as I am concerned, muslims started this "war on Islam". What did you honestly think would happen after 9/11. I read here lots of complaints against the "western way". If u don't show respect to our ways, how can u expect us to respect yours. And if living here in Britain or the west as a whole is so bad and against so many of your beliefs, why do you stay here. If I hated where I lived that much, I'd move. U should all be deported, U are traitors to a country that tries to treat u fairly. I feel really sad that so many of us can not relate to the idea of muliple layers of identity. My religion, ethnic/ linguistic group, living in Great Britian are all equally important parts of me. I love living in UK with all it faults I feel more free than in any muslim countries. We need 2 practice more tolerance & understanding of other communities in order to improve image of Islam.our behaviour can show true & tolerant face of Islam. Stop moaning take action, integrate more & be Muslim. After reading some of the comments here, I would like to say that not all whites,for want of a better description, drink heavily and are anti-muslim. My family & I are catholic, we don't drink or smoke or shout racist abuse. Personally I find the current drinking culture pathetic and those who allow themselves to get that intoxicated are morons. I also find, that many muslims seem to think we christians are scum. I think if we talked about our faiths, we might find many points in common. Live & let live is all i say!we need to respect other peoples cultures as well while not compromising our own. i feel let down by this website as you favour the shallow people in this world and promote thei not so reserachd opions and educated indiviauils like myself are not reperseneted, how on earth am i meant to fight my corner when i don't get any support may be you should support mwe by putting my comments onn bhe website. thnxs!!!! The most important thing is your Islamic identity because you can choose to be a Muslim, you can't choose where you are born. We need to look at what Britain represents before we adopt it as an identity and to make sure that it doesn't contradict our belief. I know that I don't feel part of a drinking culture, colonialism the freedoms this country pushes that allow homosexuality. I am a human being first.
it dont matta what u r as long as ur a muslim. In Islam there is no differences between bangali, pakistani or different casts. It dont matta whether ur british muslim or not .. Your a Muslim .. thats what matters Sorry MO, London but your view is very STUPID. I was born in Britain so why should i move, if Britain promotes free speech then whats the problem with critism. If you go to a muslim country you would be treated with respect if you show respect. There over 2 million muslims in the UK, so i suggest that you think before you speak
Why you are making an issue of what is already told in Book of Lord. (Meaning) We have made nationalities and groupings amongst you for mutual introduction (Quran) There is no harm if we are known by national identities as long as collectively we are proud to be called Muslims as said(Meaning)All Muslims are brotherhood. when ever you cross your boarder you are asked of your nationality and not religion, it is simple so muslims in britian or British Muslim are both equally correct identities. I'm a British Muslim with legal loyalty to the UK. My religion is my way of life and does not impinge on my Citizenship. I'D LIKE TO RESPOND THAT IDIOT FROM LONDON, GOING BY THE NAME OF "SHAWN", WHO BELIEVES THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A BRITISH MUSLIM. WELL, HE'S RIGHT ! ESPECIALLY SINCE SCOTLAND AND WALES' "DEVOLUTION", YOU ONLY HAVE ENGLISH MUSLIM, ENGLISH CHRISTIAN, ENGLISH BUDDHIST ETC. AS REGARDS MYSELF, I'M A BAPTIST ! I'M ALSO FROM LONDON (THOUGH CURRENTLY ABROAD) AND WHAT STRIKES ME HERE IS THE CHIPPY BEHAVIOUR OF ANGLO ENGLISH MEN. IF HE (SHAWN) PROVIDES THE NAME OF THE BOROUGH HE LIVES IN,I'LL STEER CLEAR. if I go to the Middle East I have to follow the rules of Islam, and in Saudi, can't even practise a non-islamic religion. The simple solution for Britain is just to ban Islam. If you don't like it, move to an Islamic Country. I emigrated from Britain to Switzerland 4 years ago. If I expressed the views given here about my generous hosts then frankly, I'd expect to be put on the next plane home.
If you decide to emphasise on these little things in life you’ll end up living a sad lives
No way is this comparable but When the British went setting colonies around the world did they consider
Does it really matter whether you regard yourself British or not?
I’m a british female citizen of bangladeshi and indian origin. i don’t think that my identities are mutually exclusive. Because I’m a muslim doesn’t mean I cant celebrate the culture of the country of my mom and dad and the country (britain) that I was born in.
Hi,
I am a devoted Muslim living happily in the UK. I see that many things in the uk is Islamic.Many Islamic values strongly implemented in the British culture.Dont be trapped on 'labels'and missed the inner truth beyond them . If you truly can 'see' God , where ever you are, in the UK or in Sudan you can 'see' His Virtues.If you can't appreciate the land and people that give you life,space and air,how could you possibly appreciate God.Kill your ego and let your holy soul unveiled Speaking as some-one without religion, The only thing I can see is a lack of understanding on all sides. It seems a lot of Muslims don't know thier religion, or have a strange interpratation of it, and if non Muslims actually understood the true meaning of Islam, then we could work together together to find a solution for proper integration into our society, I personally think that the problem is our politicians, thier all old people that use phrases like "in my day". This is OUR day so listen!! I don't think the war in Iraq would have happend if the world trade towers did not go down. Just like I don't think the atomic bombs would have been dropped if not for pearl harbor. You don't go up to the biggest guy in the pub and poke him in the eye then expect not to be totally smashed.
Assalamu Alaikum,
Muslims, christians jewish,black white these terms only separate, we should be using the word PEOPLE,
I am a Proud Afghan-American, which doesn't underestimate my faith in Islam. Ultimately I believe it’s a battle of good vs. evil where evil is hidden in all races, religions and nationalities, and good is through the hearts of men as encouraged by Islam as where by true Christianity and Judaism. Today we are in a massive confusion and misunderstanding phase of equalization where the 'west' is staring 'Islam' right into the face and some will realize its truth and others will fight/fall in shame. assalamuailaikum everybody even i are not a britainian bit i hope i also can give my opinion. i think wherever we been thats not be a reason for not made what Allah have obligate to us because ALlah been anywhere. so i hope all people in britain are always have a strength of iman to overcome every pressure by our enemy esspecially your goverment, i think thats all my comentary for now ok.. I'm a Scot in Britain.THAT makes me a BRIT. Why cant you be a Brit too ?. Are you not me ?. I'm loyal to my country." BRITAIN". The Union Jack flies over this country, IT constitutes all four countries flags super imposed into one.They have individual identity but in a crisis they are all one. The yanks ?. One of us = 25 of them. beleive me thats true !. ASK THE WORLD NOT JUST THE GERMANS. Dont try and treat us as you would the americans.WE BITE WHEN FUCKIN PISSED OFF.KEEP TRYING IT AND SEE !. all these racist people who think by sending muslims back home will be better for them, well your wrong.
Andrew, may be you need to to wake up! I know that the path i chose is the right one and the coversion rate to my understanding (check with the bbc)is one the increase. I just you take in account what my muslim friend (Farah) has said in her messages. And by the way the Islamic world has been curropted by Americans Capitalist way and the jew hatred of everyone.
To Shawn, and all the others who hold a 'BNP-ish' view towards Muslims, do I detect a hint of jealousy? Maybe you don't have a strong faith and choose to call yourself an 'Atheist', Judging by your lack of english skills (your message is poorly written) I'd say you were either uneducated or suffering from the effects of intoxicants... or perhaps both!
Why shouldn't we Muslims who were born in Britain be proud of our identity and heritage? Why embrace the blanket identity of 'British'? After all, every category needs a sub-category - it's what makes us individuals. I'm just a Muslim, who by chance, happens to have been born and brought up in Britain. Being Muslim is part of my identity, I would still be a Muslim had I been born in another country. There is nothing such as a british muslim its just muslim that live in britian the sooner you lot leave the better assalaamu alaykum,
Asim Khan, please wake up. Islam has an extremely low conversion rate in the West, as Dr. Siddiqui from SOAS has observed. Sorry, but your faith simply has nothing to offer most of us and, unbelievable though I'm sure you'll find it, most of us are quite happy with our own culture, thank you. That's why we aren't emigrating in droves to the Islamic world. I am British, born in the UK, am brown in skin colour, am a christian, My roots are Indian. So I guess I'd classify myself British-Indian, It would be stupid for me to write British-Christian right?? Being British is not about a religion. My kids will be British, Irish if born there and French if born in France, you get the picture? I am proud of being British, Support England in Rugby & Footy and dont take this country for liberties. I love UK, I feel for our troops, of whom my nephew is one.
I am a Muslim born in Britain and have values and morals which relate to both
Western Democracy is not perfect. Theocracy is less than perfect. Politicians of any nationality or creed are self serving, but the christian / Islamic crusades ended centuries ago, when will Islam accept this and look to itself for the cause & solution to it's ills? Who can say what is true and untrue? Who has the right and knowledge? Our Creator, God Almighty. Where is the proof that religion is an assumption, and that atheism is not? Truth is only open 2 those who wish 2 know it. Now there is a chance 2 fulfill our duty 2 God, when we die there will b none. Broadminded people think and inquire without prejudice. And truth opens unto them. Science confirms the Quran. Shallow excuses will help none. This is not intellect, to wage war against God. Sean an james what do you mean by tolerant. Whites citzens are not tolerant themsleves, I'm British and pass Tebbit Criket test yet i can walk outside my house after 11 without being called a paki or told to go back where i come from.
I heartly agree with Sean from Sheffield. Muslims in UK enjoy too many rights, to the point they think their religious views are the only right ones. The fact that we come from Adam and so are religious assumptions. Nobody can absolutize them in a secular country. That's why we can be tolerants each others as long as anybody else is tolerant with us. We must be intollerants of intollerants, and I'm afraid the only intolerants today are the muslims. Secularism means seperate, islam has to come to terms with this, and for a start has to stop distorting what secularism is.
I am British.And have the rights to live happily in this world, created for ALL Mankind by God.
Steve Anthony, you must be really stupid if you think terroist like Bin laden are muslim. When will you lot learn the diffrence i get enough problems from kids in my school. Muslims are being picked on because the west are worried that the islamic way of life is better than captislism. For example you talk about womens rights yet in the west women are posing naked for sad men to earn money page 3 in the sun ring any bells.
I see that some British muslims feel that they no longer can be British because this country supported the war on Iraq. This war was not supported by the majority of the British people. Muslims may as well say that they are no longer muslims due to the murder of children in Russia by muslim extreamists which I am sure they are sickened by. Wise up, a country is made up by all of its citizens and you can't be in or out depending on what you agree with at any one time. I am sure that the Prophet did not set out for political power but got it anywayit was only later bad Caliphs who subverted jihad to mean killing anyone who got in their way,not just those who were trying to stop Muslims from practising their faith which is my reading of the Quran. The very first posting says what we should all use as our approach to seemingly insoluble religio/ethnic issues - use pragmatism, the art of what is possible. see next post There is more freedom tolerance in England a christian country than in a muslim country. Unbelievable fact but true. I pray at the crack of dawn and I wear my jeans not tight but more decent that the shalwar trousers. Nothing is written on my face that I am a practising muslim. I have more rights than in pakistan. I bless England to offer me a decent livelihood. There are no big talks about religion but sometimes I despair when there is the holy of month of Ramadan and the muslim festivals. Waheed, instead of going into Iraq to secure the oil in order to keep the country where you're living going, would have been better to let Saddam in his place? Sure we did create more hatred but we avoided muany more bad things! I am a British Muslim convert and I also find myself getting stuck between my new religion and my hostile surroundings. People are too willing to settle with stereotypes. Not all terrorists are 'muslims' - how quickly we forget Timothy Mcveigh and the problems the UK had with the IRA. Are the mafia a good advert for the Catholic Church? The media has our future in their hands and without full support of the muslim community I can only see us being ostracised further. well I don't know what being British has to offer any Muslim in terms of culture or idea's. Islam is a unique sytem and unique Identity. I ask you Muslims in Britain, would you fight for Britian in Iraq? Would you let your children "decide" if homosexuality is ok? Would you let your children decide if they should be Muslim or Kafir?I am sure you would say no to all. This "British" Muslim rubbish seeks to divide Muslims from Britian from the rest of the Ummah!!! Don't let this happen!!! Why do Muslims object to "religious profiling"? If we were threatened by Communist or neo-Nazi terrorists, then the police would rightly investigate Communists and neo-Nazis. Why should Muslims be any different to other belief groups, whether those beliefs be religious or political? There's no point questioning, say, Buddhists or Pagans when the terrorists are clearly Islamic. I am an aetheist, it does not mean I want to be ignorant of the world but there are things I fundimentaly don't understand. I read the "you are wrong because of this", "you are wrong because of this", I read of the exploitation. I don't deny the exploitation of the west on the 3rd world but neither do I deny the exploitation of the likes of Saddam Hussain on his people. The basic truth is we are all at fault, lets be honest as people and then we can move forward and make the world a better place
I was born here as a Christian. I was British and my religion was protestant. I am still British and now my religion is Islam. My being British has nothing to do with my religion. My wife is Singaporean. She is a muslim, but she has never had to say she is a Singaporean muslim. Why is it only in Britain religion has to play a part in who we are. I still dress as I always have, I'm English after all. But muslims from other races should have the right to dress according to their culture. Paul its not that easy, if you create hatred you are now forced to live with it, how much bridges could you have built by saying lets wait and see of iraq is a threat, lets wait to see what the possible consequences will be, lets wait and see if muslism will respond well, INSTEAD you went in like gorilla's have killed, murdered and torutured and now millions WANT REVENGE NICE GOING, now your solution is leave if you feel angry, Not a chance mate not a chance you are going to have to live with it The standards of living of all Western countries depend on oil. The legality of the war in Iraq is about oil. Killing muslims there don't matter. Take it or leave it if you don't like it, and leave this country for good! Pointless disucssuin really, i mean illegal wars kill patriotism in hearts, I love britain its my home i was born here its wet and rains alot but its home, Yet the patritoism was ripped out of my heart when this country went alog with ameirca to kill and attack muslims, im confused why anyone would question me n this issue, how can i have patriotism when i see muslims killed and torutured by soldiers fighting a illegalw ar because of this country and the united states cont...
This debate is somewhat meaningless as it is very difficult to define the terms being used – ‘British’ and ‘Muslim’ in such a cavalier fashion. They have different meanings for different people. The values encapsulated in both are at once compatible and alien since value systems seldom remain static.
You should all be friends and try and help each other in your daily lives instead of fighting. Realize that you are mere puppets in the hands of people wanting power and oil. If you were friends, you´d be strong. A British isn´t perfect nor a Muslim is. You all have qualities and defects. You should support each other. Wisdom is the key. Humanism is the answer. Don´t let bad things rule your lives. Let´s enjoy what we have! As a Christian i would agree with Rinek if the whole of england became islamic i would do the same as you ---jihad I'm a Briton of Bangladeshi Muslim origin. I don't see any problems with that. One cannot compare a national identity with a religious one. They are not one and the same. There is no such thing as a Brtish Muslim. The majority of you only come here because it is a free meal ticket! Muslims know the West fought hard to get rid of Feudal system. West don't realise oppression from Feudalism not came from God but from corrupted men making their own laws in God's name. Today, politicians make the laws and people still oppressed. Islamic khilafah system not man-made. Khalif elected 2 implement law NOT make them. Legislation from Creator. If Paul (Aberdeen) wants 2 defend his values, he can't be a common person & ignorant of Islam. After all we are facing ideological war. Waheed "my" democracy is what allows you to speak out against me and western values within my own country. What you mentioned about imperialism is beyond reach, control and awareness of common people. There's nothing we can do about the first world exploiting the third one. I am only defending my values. It's you and all the muslims like you that want to impose in my own country your unacceptable customs of gender segregation, animal abuse and religious bigotry!! I am a Muslim living in Britain. As such that makes me no different from a Britain of any other faith. However, as long as political movements such as the BNP peddle lies about the Islamic faith, I don't think any of us will ever be considered 'British' in our right to be here. (see latest BBC report on Undercover in BNP) i was born in the UK and am 16. I have move acroos the country from bradford to gloucester. It becomes clear that muslims will never be accepted. In bradford i a hardline mulsim with tradtional values and so were my friends we used to look out for each other as the BNP would travel in groups of 30's in town and try to beat up young muslims. However in gloucester my new "muslim" friends were more liberal to the extent of taking drugs and having girlfriends. They too still suffer racist abuse! Paul half the world siffes in poverty while the other half [america & co] rape the 3rd world of resources what fairness is there, what has your democracy bought to the world except to make you rich enough to abuse the rest, imperialism was supposed to be over but you havent ended it you have continued to abuse millions and continued to force your will on nations across the planet, in iraq you waged a illegal war killed thousands of muslims and now you want to force upon us your ideals again paul, clearly from your comments you obviously haven't done your reading or research. The Islamic laws protect all, muslim or non-muslims, whereas your so-called secular democratic countries do not when it's absolutely uncalled for.i don't pose a threat to anyone so why should i be treated unfairly simply because of my faith.i don't want to go centuries back. The Islamic law can be implemented at any time including modern times.the democracy poses a greater threat than an Islamic state. "Liberated Woman":What do you mean by Islamic State?In any case it always involves the implementation of sharia law. What you all Muslims do not understand is the fact that the West is made of secular countries and we fought very hard to gain the liberation we achieved from religion. Why do you want to go centuries back? I appeal to all non Muslims like me to reject such a threat and to stand for what we achieved through reason and understanding not through the authority of few "enlighted" ones. Paul, i have to say that because there is no true islamic state you can't see how peaceful life could be.There are muslim countries but none implement the beautiful teachings of Islam. If u read about the history of when the islamic state was abolished in certain countries many non-muslims were upset they lost just muslim rulers.Christian leaders cried as they had protection no more.That's y i asked u 2 read about Islam and u will realise what is often portrayed is far from Islam and the truth. Farid, you seem to forget that the west has fought for centuries against the oppression of christian religion.We don't need to be dominated by bigot superstitions in order to be considered human beings as you muslim think. There's no way we're gonna be drawn back from your medieval authoritarian system and that's why I do not respect it.
Paul,if you mean the covering of the head by Muslim women.Why do Nuns cover hair,if you look at any picture or statue of Mary mother of Jesus,you find she has her hair covered,funny that isnt it(did Jesus oppress Mary?)so it isnt medieval or alien to the West.You say Muslims are intolerent.Islamic priciple is to live in harmany and implement social justice.This is enriched in Koran (3:75,5:8,21:107,60:8)as in the Jewish and Chistian Scriptures. Are all Chrisians,Jews and Muslims Fundamentalists? I consider myself to be muslim and nothing else. What does it matter where we live? The whole earth is Allah's and so it's all home. It doesn't matter where you are in the world as long as you have faith in your heart.Besides there is no true Islamic state anywhere so there is no ideal place to live in this world any more. Paul your comments are wrong.Try to actually learn about Islam and not believe what media tells you.You will then realise Islam is not babaric and oppressive but liberating! I was born in the UK, i dont have to like it or accrept it, why should i the UK has forced itself upon millions of people around the world, what makes me more british then being self serving and holding my own beliefs above anyone elses, the UK has bowed to america and is trying to force its ideology upon muslims in iraq, YET paul says muslims cant do that here, knock it off paul, i assure you Islam is the only truley valid system left after humanity has degraded everything else No Farid, you and all Muslims like you are not integral part of British society as any one else. All the other minority groups don't show off their medieval way of dressing, the cruel way of butchering animals or oppressing women, the intolerance against anything which is not muslim and therefore it makes you the only and true fundamentalists. This is why we will never perceive you as integral part of British society but rather like a burden to endure. I am a British Muslim of Bangladeshi origin.I feel Britain is my home and consider my self as British as much as I am a Muslim. However, my question is this to those who pose and question Muslims about thier identity - WHY does it become an issue and WHY is this question posed if your a Muslim? Why not question the Jews, Siekhs, Hindus, Bhudists or even immigrant Christians. What makes us Muslims any different from them. We are an integral part of Birtish society as much as any one else in UK. salam im kashma from malaysia.Well i think all muslim around the world should work together and plz avoid greedy from ur self ..we must work together and in the same time respect ppl (other religion n they will respect us too... salam im kashma from malaysia.Well i think all muslim around the world should work together and plz avoid greedy from ur self ..we must work together and in the same time respect ppl (other religion n they will respect us too... Andrew Ipswich: 2 things following your comment. firstly, all Muslim countries today are non Islamic and are run by greedy, Machiavellian rulers and cronies using Islam for their own benefit. That's why we're trying to get rid of them. The last true Islamic state (Caliphate) was the Ottoman empire that stretched from East to West.
Fine Anon, that's true. However, as far as Islam is concerned, we aren't talking about a religion, in the same way of christianity which can be separated by society much more than Islam due to western previous history. Beside the finger-pointing comes more by Muslims who impose their rule of conducts in our society, from code of dressing to diet and even cruel ways to butcher animals. Having Muslim friends is personal. These issues can become problematics for society taken in a general sense. Good and bad exist in all parts of the world. People are individuals and need to bejudged as such. Whether black/ white,Muslim/Christian, we are all individuals and there is good and bad in all groups so why the simplistic grouping/stereotyping of one other?
Catherine, found you comments interesting. Am surprised that people don't seem to realise that religion is about spirituality rather than political wrangling. Finger-pointing/ seeking to place blame is a rather pointless exercise as abuses of power occur all over the world and no-one can point the finger at anyone else as no-one is perfect.
I agree, Paul. The Islamic culture is too far removed from the British one. And the concept of "ummah" ensures that Muslims have loyalties to a fellow Muslim before a fellow compatriot. So all you Muslims with British passports. You're either British in heart, soul and loyalty or you're a parasite/hypocrite leeching off a country you despise. If you're the latter, leave this country or endure a lifetime of marginalisation or "Islamophobia". Those who put Britain before your religion - Welcome! I think the request for more muslim schools from muslim academics is a disgrace. There are already 140 of them, practicing the genre exclusion and implementing their medieval way of dressing. I reckon that this will divide our society more. It's fair to have cultural awareness but things like that will definetly enphasize some stereotypes. Non-muslims will see Islam as a way of segregating genres and as a big force to oppose within our own society. You know what? If I lived in a country that had been host my family for less than 3 generations, I'd be very careful about insulting the idigenous population, especially if I hail from a culture/religion that is the total opposite of my new country. Muslims wonder why they are treated like outsiders? Because they act like it. Those who have issues with the way this infidel land is run, go - just go. Returning to your ancestral home will suit you as you so love to cling to old customs & loyalties Somalia? How about Sudan? Look what Muslims do in Sudan: bombarding the black people in the south who fight with spears in order to steal oil from their territory and sell it to the Westerners. How hypocritics Muslims are!!! I have found the mention of somalia very interesting here. This is a country that the USA tried to impose peace on but which failed much to the delight of many muslims. Since then no muslim country or movement have bothered to try and help the people who suffer every single day. Can muslims do anything constructive or is it that their only talent as a people is to be Anti something? I would love to see the Arab league or other Muslim organisations actually doing something about their "world" Further to Umm sulayman.You say the West need to convince that freedom is great and then mention Iraq,Somalia and Afghanistan-not adverts for free democratic states.Argentina was a dictatorship until recently so is a very young democracy trying to build itself.I can't convince you freedom is the best but you only need to compare the great democracies of the world and their institutions to countries run by religious clerics.Why are people emigrating to the West from these states-not vice versa? Umm sulayman,if you have read all my comments on here you will know I haven't been reactionary and sarcy. What is freedom? Freedom is my capacity to exercise choice.This can be my beliefs what I want to wear or how I live my life as long as it doesn't impinge upon the freedom of others or harm them.It also means that I can do all of these things without being oppressed or held in detention.Do I really need to explain why this system is so favourable? What would you rather see? Sounds interesting, I think I have better work to do than wasting my time here arguing about my Identity. You guys need to wake up. Question 4 Andrew Ipswich; I can see U have lot of faith in freedom and secularism. Will you explain 1. What is freedom? 2. Why do you believer freedom is good? Western govs have failed to convince us freedom is great. This is evident from egs: iraq, Afghanistan, somalia even non Muslim countries like Argentina, free market economy have failed. You however still believe that freedom is the way forward for Muslim so, do convince us intellectually rather than make reactionary and sarcy comments. Thanks Yusef-much appreciated! We do read like a double act-we can go stage together!Anyway, you are right, good manners is all that is needed eg a state that separates religion from government. Islam is very simple faith. it means submissive or peace. May Allah SWT shower all of us with peace, protection, patience and happiness. Ameen Assalam alaikum to everyone, you guys Andrew & MULLAH Hafeezud Din have just cracked me up. I haven't laughed or enjoyed exchanges for ages. I've had a lot of uni work & exams. You both would make a great double act. Anyhow, with regards to the problems at the moment,it does not matter what a person is. i'd help andrew & Hafeez. Good manners is what enables anyone 2 live together. unfortunately theres lot of ignorance on both 'sides'.For every criticism i've made of west, same 4 muslims.balance I would ask all law abiding Muslims throughout Iraq and the wider world to pay attention to the report that is now exposing the Daily Mirror and its Editor, Piers Morgan for the disgraceful manner in which he and his paper alleged that British Troops were currently involved in abusing prisoners in their charge whilst serving in Iraq.
I dident go to war nither did i send anyone. yet you say i did?
non-muslims ahve never given muslism peace, you have STARTED YET ANOTHER WAR and killed tens of thousand sof muslimsa nd failed in yuor war aims and just created more anger and this anger grows, THEN DURING THIS WAR you turn to muslims and ask, why are we angry, why has our nationalism gone, why dont we love our country, I was born here im not going anywhere but i dont like you anymore after i see what you have done in iraq all those thousands dead after we beggd you not to go to war I was bor and raised in a predominatly muslims country. Thre, we accepted them, but they never accepted us. Why is this? A Christian accepts a mulim, but a muslim will never accept a Christain? Why is this? We offer yiou peace, but you never accept it. Why? We belive you, but you never believe us. Why? We are trutful to you, but you are devious to us. Why? We allow muslims teachings in our countries (which we shoul not), but you dont. Why? You have a choice of leaving, why dont you? Many contributors say they are not British but Muslims born in Britain. Fine. They practice their own belief, customs and culture and do not have loyalty or contribute to the wellbeing of the wider community. OK.
to those who will listen:
An etymological link between the words "mosque" and "mosquito" is improbable. Mosquito comes from the Latin "musca" meaning a fly, whereas "mosque" is derived from the Arabic masjid. The Italian form of this word "moschea" is closer to the original Arabic. Arabic, a semitic languge, has few links with the Indo European group to which Latin belongs so a common root is very unlikely. WRONG,Ian from Cumbria. I don't preach in a Mosque, I preach in a MASJID. Mosque is a word derived from a spanish word mosquito during the CRUSADE. I don't need power; there is only ONE supreme power and is NOT USA nor UK, but, Almighty Allah Taa'la!
Human beings have a myriad of overlapping loyaties and allegencies. Devout Christians would put loyalty to their faith above loyalty to their country so it is not surprising to hear many British muslims say the same thing.
I believe first and forthmost as truely Muslim. I support any country who are Truely Muslim country. I don't believe be british culture.Howevery British society are very good poeple as ordinary society but government and police services are racist. I would not advice any truely muslim persons to come in UK whether to live or to work Practice tolerance, love and understanding and in time more and more people will be drawn towards you. We all want to be happy. There is a lot of injustice in the world but reacting with fear and aggression clouds the moral argument for what is right and fair. Look at Gandhi and Nelson Mandela. Even if it doesn't directly work with the Israeli's it will motivate the World much more than repeated suicide bombings. It will leave them with no clear moral excuses at all-not even self-defence... Ian, your comments my friend are lost onme their are many things still unanswered from the tradegy of Paris? Respect others opinions whether you accept them or not. J Starbuck do wear a kilt and eat haggis? I find it extremely offensive that you have and underlying view which is to the far right. Are you related to MR N Griffen or Mr Le pen? Why did we the British invade other countries in a colourful colonial past? Was that democracy? was that freedom? was that repression? Wake up!... I believe that everyone is entitled to believe as they wish as long as it doesn't harm others. I often get the impression from Muslims however, that I (and anyone else who is not a Muslim) is wrong, even evil somehow. This is what saddens me the most. Thankfully I live in a Western society where there is freedom of worship, should that really be taken away in the name of Allah? What absurdity from Mullah Hafeezud Din. The Royal Descent goes through Charles, not Diana. If she was pregnant the child would not be heir to the British Crown. You preach in a mosque you say. You preach fantasy then, fantasy which shows your lust for power and prestige. Yousif ali, it is not me making wild numeric claims - where do you get your figures? I am certainly not abusive, I just find it intolerable that anyone of any colour or creed wanting to live in my homeland abuses its freedoms and its own indiginous people. The claim your parents claim here for 'our' benefit is clearly ridiculous - your parents came to a liberal country to improve their economic and living standards, and often to avoid repression by their own countrymen/governments. Andrew/Starbuck, perhaps you should tell what figures you believe show how many muslims died in the wars (better still it might be interesting to show how many the empire killed as well).
Assallamu-Alaikum ( peace be upon you )
MULLAH Hafeezud Din - correct first time, you ARE talking double Dutch.The world would love to see your 'proof'. Lets see it stand up to scrutiny. I think it is me who will be resting my case. And by the way, I most certainly do not agree with the things that Blair and Bush have done. British Indian Muslim. Reasonable freedom, lively intellectual,cultural and literary atmosphere.
Andrew, Ipswich, perhaps I'm talking DOUBLE dutch or you're NOT even trying to understand me, I said, I had prove about Diana! I'm going to rest my case, ignore you as from now, probably 'coz you graduated from the school as Bush and Blair - NOT listening! Yousif ali, as a history graduate I, like Andrew would love to know your bibiographic references regarding your historic claims. As so many here are obviously intent on constantly dredging up centuries old grievances, perhaps we should start vilifying the French and Scandinavians, etc. for the repression and the racial and religious atrocities Normans & Vikings perpetrated in these Islands when they arrived uninvited! Or is that a luxury reserved only for other races with 'genuine' grievances? MULLAH Hafeezud Din, your politics are derived from your beliefs.Unfortunately you have a wild set of beliefs born from distorted thought.This is not a criticism of Islam before you take it as such.You rant incorrectly about Diana without any proof other than your feeling of race persecution.Unfortunately I guess that the people you preach to also feel a sense of unjustice and persecution as well.Your wild unfounded ramblings will only fan the flames of their anger..or is that what you want? It would be nice if you lived in the land of reality yousif. If you really think a white christian could be 'elected' in a muslim country. For a start real democracy doesn't exist and where it pretends to exist, people wouldn't vote for this person anyway. Just call me a realist and not a theorist on this one. Erm, point about more muslims dieing world war 2.Where do you get your figures for this? Commonwealth dead were of course high but it wasn't predominantly muslim. Don't twist the facts. Andrew, Ipswich, I don't preach politics; (contributing on here is something I can't say in the Mosque),I simply preach the wonderful teachings of Islam and people do take me seriously; perhaps, you should attend one day and learn about the TRUE meaning of live. Ayub I hear you! We should have never invaded your country but we did so you could bring your balti's over to the UK. Good food at a cheap price. J Starbuck you live in a world which is up north somewhere?... Your type of democracy isnt wanted in Iraq. Lets get out and leave the muslim brothers and sisters sought themselves out. They are adults and people and do not need outside interference. Bush and Blair are going out to fight in Falluja..... yeah lets get real blair is bush's poodle... Starbuck
Mullah Hafeezud Din - again you are wrong and ranting.J Starbuck points out way but misses your other wrong point.If Diana was pregnant with Dodhy's child it would not be heir to the throne! It has to be a descendant of Charles to be a potential monarch.What worries me is do the people you preach to actually take you seriously. Mullah Hafeezud Din, my apologies -I forgot that only Muslims have a grasp on reality. Clearly you have proof of Diana's murder which no-one else has, perhaps you should let the authorities have it. Re-read my posting - Tariq Aziz is not a white Briton (& I doubt was elected anyway) and I STILL very much doubt a white British born person will ever be elected to any position of power in any Muslim country in the way we allow Muslims to be in here in the UK. To all those white British people who say to the Muslims to get back to where they came from, if they dont like it here, I ask them who invited you to our country (India and Pakistan )some 200 years ago. Did you adopt our language, our culture etc?. Did you hell aslike. You spoke your language, you dressed in arrogant ways, and you treated us as second hand citizens in our country. So dont tell us what to do here. We work our arse off and make a lot of contribution. This is our country as well i mean no offence.
>EXPLORE YOUR BRITISH MUSLIM IDENTITY HERE
J Starbusk of Glasgow, you're living in a fantasy world. Come down to reality! Iraq is a Muslim country; Tariq Aziz is a CATHOLIC and he was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq. Let me put you straight, why was Diana killed? Because she was carrying a Muslim child of Dodhy, and the Queen and her royals were not in favour of a Muslim child being heir to the throne. So, who does hold racist views?
you should stop the war please you will make more disaster to the universe and people dying
Reading some of the rabid postings here saddens me. Why do many Muslims stay in a country whose indiginous people they hate?
Saheed,yet another fanatic with a chip on his shoulder about the west.Live in the here and now.What happened in the past happened in the context of the culture of the time.Do we we want to talk about the forgotten slave industry?Muslim massacres of Christians in the past?Atrocities carried out by both sides in the crusades? What about the conquests of the arabs in the middles ages forcing islam on people?The occupation of Greece?Get on with your life and live in the present, not the middle ages. Saheed, if you are living in the UK then you have waged this 'illegal' war (and yes, it was illegal) against Iraq, and also against Afghanistan, every bit as much as the rest of us. If you pay tax then you bought the bombs too. Millions of Brits took to the streets in the biggest protests in UK history - are you forgetting that? The British wanted the Iraqi war no more than the Spanish did and I hope Blair will suffer at the next election for not listening to us just as the Spanish PM did. Most muslims here are born here this is OUR country, its not liek you people went to australia or SA to learn the culture of the aborigini or african NO u slaughtered them & have been continuing to slaughter MILLIONS since then you have waged YET ANOTHER ILLEGAL war that makes you criminals you have NEVER stopped commiting these crimes the deaths and massacre of thousands & thousands ends any respect & nationalism muslims have thats UR fault stop interfering poverty is better then en-slavment a lot of muslims living in Britain are abusing a state that gives them complete freedom and equal oppurtunities that would not be available to them in many countries Britain has always embraced people who come here from more repressed regimes but it seems to many non muslims that quite a few muslims are willing to bite the hand that feeds it, I fail to understand why someone who is so opposed to western values chooses to stay why not move to afganistan for instance and make that country a wonder MULLAH Hafeezud Din, you are irresponsible and a liar to say "Muslims are the only people who are NOT protected by the Religious Discrimination Laws". Are you trying to stir trouble? Everyone is protected by this law and the liberal left now go so far as to discriminate against Christians! Not that I care because I think religion is a concept that promotes a medieval way of thinking.
Let me address a few wild assertions made by people on this site. The west is after oil: the west buys it for a fair price,where would oil nations be without the west.Muslims are treated unfairly and are poverty stricken:so is any part of society that does not get an education, plenty of whites live in a ghetto as well.The west kills muslims:the west set out to kill military targets and unfortunately innocents are sometimes there.Islamic extremists set out to kill innocents eg NY and Madrid Amazingly this site exists. In Great Britain we have clothed and fed you and for what, to be informed that we are racist and facist. In this dark age of injustice for muslims you have only yourselves to blame. Great Britain has a majority of Christians who oppose your ways but yet you rub it in our faces with your high demands and towering Mosques. The Black people assimulated but Muslims refuse to Westernise themselves.
I am born of Pakistani parentage and am proud to be a British Muslim. I absolutely condemn the terrorists who claim to be muslims.
Zamzam, it's comments like yours that make me realise that Islam will only ever rule this country over my, and (I suspect) many other peoples', dead body.
Muslism cant live in muslim countries because so many of our leaders are simpley supported by the west to achive their aims, saddam was such a leader, I was born in the UK SO WHAT what does that mean when i die what will it matter BUT i am a Muslim that means everthing when i die i will die a muslim Muslims are slaughtered and the Uk waged an ILLEGAL war NOW you have the gaul to ask us WHY? Muslims arent natioanlistic whats your problem, dont you get it u kill us so we lose our natuionalism It makes me sick that the very people who enjoy the very freedoms that our country has to offer, abuse and hate our wonderful land! If they don't like Democracy and Freedom, then simply go home. It's really as simple as that. Is what I say racist, no, it's practical! If I don't like a country or it's people, why would I stay?
this is to NIck! look i understand ur argument but u must consider the hatred u ppl have willingly caused, amongst muslims across the globe.IT is ok for BLair and bush to kill masses.. this is not regarded as terrorismm. However muslims are labelled terrorists. well y because they have been provokedd. No muslim is going to sit there being saddened by the deaths of muslims in the middle east.i believe u have limited knowledge of islam because, islamic philosophy and science has improved ur lives. this is to NIck! look i understand ur argument but u must consider the hatred u ppl have willingly caused, amongst muslims across the globe.IT is ok for BLair and bush to kill masses.. this is not regarded as terrorismm. However muslims are labelled terrorists. well y because they have been provokedd. No muslim is going to sit there being saddened by the deaths of muslims in the middle east.i believe u have limited knowledge of islam because, islamic philosophy and science has The question invites criticism. I am British-Pakistani (the two nationalities that I can lay claim to) and I am a Muslim (which is my faith not my nationality).
I agree with Catherine, dialogue is the way forward, even the Prophet (PBUH) had such agreements with jews and chrisitians. We should learn from his example. As for Al-Qaeda, Bush and Blair, they are just as bad as each other. The British have always enforced a divide and conquer rule on weaker countries, they are the reason for the conflict in Palestine. Bush is no different, plus he really wants the oil. Al-Qaeda are not muslims, killing innocents brings them to the same level as Bush et al. Selina, Zamzam & Yasmine; your comments show you as independent, individual, prejudice and bigotry free thinkers, open to positive debate/interaction.
Al Khalid the western world is certainly not against India or Indians. Yes Britain colonised India but who do you think started it first it is your Bloody muslim rulers who started it. You took away Hindus land the present day pakistan, bangladesh what more do you want Kashmir what is next? Why do you think there is strong hatred aginst muslims because of People like Babar and Aurangazeb who destroyed indian culture and slaughtered hindus go take a look at history book before reading you koran If your are born or raised up in the "west" and Britain you are part of the "west" and are British regardless what you "feel."
I would just like to say that with all that is going on in world now with the muslims its pretty scary! you all come over like its an obsession and the most important thing in your lifes,To take a innocent life young or old because of a phrase in a book which seems to me not to many understand and turn it to suit onesself,If you dont like our way of life in uk,what you doing here? I like many others do feel scared of the future because of this obsessive faith,it will all end in big trouble. The entire world is my home, Al Hamdu Lillah. Islam emphasises on honouring the land you live on. But, can I really call myself BRITISH when Muslims are the only peoplw who are NOT protected by the Religious Discrimination Laws in UK? I love this country, a divide is appearing, muslim v west, its ridiculess, man must end war or war will end man! we r all gods creation! equall. the americans dont help matters with the gung ho approach. where do i c the world in 20 years? i dont think i wanna be around, its frightning, very! i love great britain. IN respect of my identity i count my self muslim and then British national , my true identity is in Islam , Islam is my identity ,i look at the news saying british national of pakistani decident that proof everthing that they would never accept us as a citizent. As a Sikh born here, I am proud to be called a British Sikh. Britain is one of the few countries in the world which gives equal regard to all sexes, religions, races and creed, not forgetting the right to free speech. It is these values which Muslims should realise allow them to prosper,and spread their faith. How on Earth can they then have such resentment towards Britain? Can they name any Muslim country which would give non muslims the same equal rights as they enjoy here? Selina, please state the main characteristics of (a) being a muslim and (b) being British that you say oppose each other? What are the 'British values' you speak of exactly? And in what way do 'muslim values' contradict these that other religions such as Christianity do not? i have one one word for you .lslam lslam lslam ok. don't forget your muslim i got a british passport but am not british. am muslim salam,
Catherin some humans are ignorant and hostile regardless of their backgrouns some are kind and noble regardless also. There is alot of deatha nd misery in the world this is the source of terrorism the injustice, the pain & oppression, MOST people woudl NEVER join Al Qaeda but they look at their TV's and see Muslims being killed in Bosnia Palestine, Iraq Chehcniya and thye feel anger & pain Al-Qaeda come along and say rise up witht he help of the west Al Qaeda wins because they inspire revenge Waheed, I agree with what you are saying. What happened on Sept 11th was designed to provoke the west into attacking the middle east - thus polarising east and west, the muslim and non-muslim world. Like the suckers they are, Bush and Blair obliged accordingly. Now we see increased bigotry and hatred in the UK between muslim and non-muslim citizens, such as that expressed by James from Leeds. People like this are also giving the terrorists what they want. People like me are defying them. Terrorists have a plan make 1.5billion and growing Muslims of the world hate non-muslims, they do this simply they bait the west and then people like Bush and Blair commit more atrreocities and KILL more people then the terrorists ever could, the reactions to these deathsa nd destruction & oppression caused by western policies then achives the terrorist aims of making the Muslims of the planet shout out in anger and remorse, Increasingly the acts of hypocricy by Bush etc has turned millons again After the last comments I think we must realize that before the vast white majority of British people of U.K., it's more the Muslim minority that we have to protect from terrorists and so-called islamic militants. Can't you see that they are turning us against each others exploiting our irrational fears? Here we are talking about our real 'Britishness' when we should try to unite all and deal together against the threat of any terrorism, especially from our political leadears. There are even people like this Catherine who thinks to make a positive interaction with muslims in Britain. What else do you want to do after they took our country away? They enjoy total freedom over here, to the point of betray our country and justifying (for some, helping) the terrorists which are plaguing us. This is out of order!! Person from Andorra, I've seen a mixture of views here but only non-Muslims with a negative view of Muslims appear to have been attracted so far.
Catherine from Manchester. You sought positive debate / interaction with Muslims but were disappointed to see many non-Muslims appear to have sought out the forum for an abusive slanging-match?
Following the Madrid attacks (and assuming these were linked to AQ) as a non-Muslim white Brit I thought I'd seek a forum like this for positive debate/interaction with muslims. I think positive interaction between us is the only way to move forward and to overcome the fear and hatred and bloodshed seen on both sides in the world today. I'm very disappointed to see that many other non-Muslims appear to have sought out this forum for the opposite reason - for an abusive slanging-match. i think now that the guantanamo bay prisoners are released mashallah and now they have released their stories on how they were treated the UN and international organisations should look more closely into the human rights and standards on guantanamo bay. i cant believe our muslim brothers are being treated like that. what jamal said on his interview was enough to make me even go to jihad. Mohammed you have already tarnished your own religion.Britain does not belong to WASP's anymore a lot of us Ex pats talk about finding that plug hole and pulling it out so the whole country will sink with all you stupid religious creeps with it. ASSALAMUALAIKUM, Im a muslim & proud to be a muslim.Iwant 2be knowned&lookedat as a muslim.The word British does not make me happy or sad.Im happy to be called British MUSLIM becoz of d word MUSLIM and not british.Muslims shouldnt worry about being british,french etc coz dat would make muslims into groups of citizenship. Muslims all around the world are of one race,one family,one body,under one flag............... ISLAM.
I'm a Muslim and proud to be in Britain as well. Theres no need to say your Muslim or British first or last. Everyones everything! I got my religion and the country that I live in too. The point of my previous messages being (cos this silly box only allows 500 characters): Muslims shouldn't really be bothered about nationalism rather focus on their Deen, not culture. And whilst we are here, we should be setting an example. They do not force us into fornication and sin, they do not impose Shirk upon us, and they allow us to practice our Deen (by law) so we have a binding contract to be the best of citizens, not leeches of the system. I you have the ability, then make the Hijrah Asalamu 3ala mani tabi3al huda.
I am one of the most victimised person in Britain, through racial discrimination. Britain to me represents the most helpful and yet the most racist country anywhere.
As a British Asian and a Muslim, born and bred in Britain, i have to say that i have found it hard to juggle the different cultures that i am expected to assimilate. Sometimes it can be a struggle between my private and public domain over being "just like everyone else" and a "good muslim girl" however i still enjoy the opportunity of coming from a culturally diverse background as being a British Muslim is indeed a new phenomenon and I suppose I am one of the first generations to experience it. Muslims critisize the West although most are very recent immigrates---then they act all pious--if I felt about the West the way these people do I would never stay--they are prostitutes out for money---thats all. I dont need to be lectured by prostitutes who work freely for people they not only hate but our regarded by as second class citizens. You dont deserve pride because you are whores and hypocrites!!!!! I am human---you are genetically flawed and deserve the ever increasing HATRED!!!SCUM!!! Steve in response to your question I know many white colleagues and friends who swear on their Christian faith that they are telling the truth does that mean the archbishop is a liar or Jesus lied? Lies by human beings whatever their race does not imply that the faith is to blame! I certainly wouldn't lie and put the blame on my faith! I cannot defend people that lie but don't tarnish the reputation of my faith!. Hi everybody!!!!]
Living on the Kent coast I ( unfortunately ) have numerous opportunities to interact with ethnic Albanians. Something I have noted about them is that they are very prepared to swear on their Muslim faith that they are telling the truth about something when I know for a fact that they are lying. Personally I would never dream of cheapening my religious beliefs in such a way. I would be grateful for some feedback from Muslim readers of this site. Is this normal in other Muslim communities? Honesty is the best plicy.
I can't say I see myself as british. I would like to but at this moment in time, I don't have faith in its system, because of its war against Iraq, and the fiasco of the Hutton enquiry and a lot of things. I am a Muslim in Britain.
live by our rules.would a western woman be allowed to wear a bikini in a arab state.or would that offend their way of life in their country.or can muslims only be offended where every one is free.ie in a democracy Al Khalid, I am afraid that as much as I respect your passion you certainly don't know history. When the Great Muslim armies invaded other countries such as India they certainly weren't invited. There is well documented cases of forced conversions..not against Christian or Jews as this was prohibited but against those not of the book. You would do well to understand history first as this is an important part of what today is about.
Salaam,
i am a muslim in britain.i feel poud when i am free to make my own decisions in life. i feel despair when i feel homesick and the ppl backhome don't realise my position.i call home where there is peace and quietness ,safety and time to read and explore myself. The THIRD WORLD IS RAPED OF ITS RESOURCES so a western countries can grow rich dont disgrace the third world by making it seem like their situation is a self inflicted tragedy, if tey were rich then the west would suffer massivly, THATS THE PROBLEM democracy as an ideology will never save humanity because its connected to human corruption, capitalism and the nation state, YOU speak big words how Muslims shoud force their ideology BUT ALL YOU PEOPLE HAVE EVER DONE IS FORCE YOUR OWN UPON innocents Mark Britain stole other people lands and heritages and then tried to force their own causing chaos, islam never did that most palces peopel ebcame muslim & then the area became a Muslim area, CONNIE Islam si the fastest growing faith in the world and MOST converts to islam are women, you exist & your minds are guided by society you are made a whore by the whims of society, Islam gives freedom to men, women & the individual hence islam spreads & grows & converts many women me as a muslim living in Britain am very proud of it, i am pround of seeing myself as a muslim. I dont think that by living in Britain affects me. i see myself as a muslim a muslim a muslim! muslims scarfs should not be banned or any religious symbol Maria: I will take my time writing this message so you can understand. Apologise for the grammer hope you understand, firstly who cares if your mothers is a Brit i was talking about you and as for your sorry excuse at blaming Britain for dominating other nation suggest that i was correct in my observation towards you. As for what i was meant to say love, is that, Greeks who were born here(sellouts) are the same as Greeks born in different countries. They have no love of the country of birth It is interesting that Al Khalid blames the British for the problems in Isreal/Palistine presumably because of the British Mandate and of the granting of Freedom to Pakistan/India in 1948. This is obviously a nice theory until you remember that had the Muslim invasion of the “Holy Land” in 634 or the Muslim Invasion of kashmir in the mid 12th century not taken place, then these problems would not exist today. I wonder where the line should be drawn? Is it better to look for solutions now? To Steve (London) and Joe, I admire you candour about the two-facedness of some Muslims (ie. selling alcohol etc). You are 100% right - the main problem with many Muslims in this country stem from their 'village' background, many of which are backward (eg. to marry in the caste or forced to marry cousins etc). Algeria & Turkey oppress the Muslims. Organisations such as the Arab League command as much respect in the West as a student society. i would define my identity as 'british muslim', since ive lived in england all my life and my religion, islam shapes every aspect of my life. thefore the two words 'british muslim' pritty much sums me up at a very basic level.
Maria, I support everything in your statement. You see when the British invaded countries and colonised them it wasn't seen as an occupation it was deemed conquering and clever. The British for decades have invaded countries and robbed them of there jewels! Nick god has dual nationality he holds a US & GB passport! As for Connie you have no idea about equality or Islam! How can you be a tolerant society if you fail to acknowlege other points of view! Islam is here to stay! U cant deport that! Carl: Firstly, mum is British, also your grammar is so bad that I really couldn`t understand half you were telling me.Greeks may not like Turkey because of the Ottoman Empire (they were dominating us). The Brits dominated other nations my love, not the other way around.If you don't support the return of the marbles, that's fine. Explain what in heavens you meant by:"...but you are elegance is Greek a bit like Australians and you know whats the problem is like over their." I'm waiting love. I have been harassed by many Muslim men who like to oppress and control women. This is sick and wrong. If you want to live in democracy and not get deported then you must abide by the laws in your country. This also includes how to dress. You must adapt and learn to honor, respect, and make women equal if not better than men or leave because you will not be tolerated for breaking our laws or trying to impose your own. If you want to live in safety you must act kind and safe or you'll be gone. All the whining about Brit culture on this board is about as justified as Germans moving to China and complaining that it's too Chinese. These problems ALWAYS occur when one is not in one's ancestral/cultural home & the solution in these instances is simple - leave. I lived in France for 5 months. A great place but in the end it wasn't great enough. Did I stay & insult the place? Did I complain that it wasn't English enough? Did I expect it to meet me halfway culturally? No, I left. Do the same. Nick, Your are living a fairytale life in the UK! By the way education wasn'y started by the Brits check out your history- I forgot the school you went to taught history but you were too busy chatting to take any notice of the teacher! Tell me when and where did Democracy evolve? Since you know so much? The Brits are reknowned the world over as occupying forces who steal the jewels of the country they occupy when they leave and I support maria. Nick dont come and enjoy my cuisine & then complain Maria darling you were born here but you are elegance is Greek a bit like Australians and you know whats the problem is like over their. This is the problem that Britain faces as well as religious devides, if individuals cannot understand who or what they are then thats their problem. The rest of us have to carry on with what we do, Greeks don't support Muslims alas Turkey! as for the ELGIN Marbles yeah what ever love. YOUR God created Adam not mine. I believe in evolution, not fairy stories.However, as you believe I am responsible for the actions of my ancestors, I would like to say that I feel pride that we spread education, health care and vaccination programmes around the world. I didn't notice anyone else rushing to save the third world from it's own inadequacy. BTW, being British is not just about paying taxes. It is also subscribing to democracy, something I understand your religion rejects at its peril Nick your British but so what. God created Adam was he British? or was he a US cititizen? maybe he was a European? Why should I leave Britain my birthplace? If you were so good why did you raid the birthplace of my grandparents? Your level of islam shows when you write! Democracy my friend in your book is linked to racism. Don't tell me I am not as much British as you. I pay my taxes as much as you do. I contribute to society as much as you do? I respect your opinion but mate your lost! My fault you hate me? Then leave Britain. These ideologies are too strongly divided to be conquered by mere passport Britishness. I'm ancestrally British, the vast majority of Muslims have been here less than 2 generations. If they hate "us", I suggest they go to a place where such division and anguish does not arise, at least not Islamically. I don't care that you "hate" me. Doesn't Islam reject democracy in favour of Sharia Law?If you hate me,it makes me all the more proud for being democratic Nick Muslims love Britain its the land of our Birth, what we hate is idiots like Blair and all who supported them over lies to kill and Muder 60,000 more muslims in iraq and plunge it into chaos to remove a dictator YOU supported for decades, YES I HATE YOU KNOW, gee mate why are you surprised, what did you think that you can launch illegal wars killing tens of thousands of innocent people and we will just sit here, its your fault we hate you now. All you Muslims who feel little or no affinity to Britain or it's culture - go and live in the land of your parents. Without freedom of speech, freedom of movement, free medical care, free education,free housing and benefits, I guarantee you will be singing love songs about the so-called kufr Britain before the month is out. You will find Julian that contrary to what you are told the west does not believe if freedom of speech or indeed democracy. We have limits , what we need to look at is who is best to place limited on us. Is it man who is weak limited and needy. Or is it the one who creates us and know what is best for us Kilroy Silk. One reason why people choose to live here is because anyone ANYONE can say what they think . Now an MP has been sacked . Repression is on it's way.. As a a british born greek girl, I support the muslim community. You are as much british as I and many others are! Please I ask you to support the return of the parthenon marbles to greece for the olympics enough of the brits trying to steal others culture and history. greeks have always supported the palestinians, please help us and write to the gov. and museum, voicing your support! to those who are on Hajj, God bless you!!Thank you. Robert u r rite when u say we dont even practice our religion properly. but u r wrong about the actions of muslims. yes some Islamic militants r wrong because even in jihad it is wrong 2 kill women and children. But Israel and america have a war on Islam I was born in Great Britain so I am British. I was born to muslim parents and I try to follow the religion of Islam as best as I can so I am a muslim. Being a muslim means submitting to Allah and his laws, hence eating and drinking halal foods and drinks, dressing decently, looking after parents and family members and obeying the 10 commandments. How do I contribute to the British society?…..I am a law abiding citizen, I work and pay taxes, I help my neighbours and friends who are from different races and backgrounds, I do voluntary work in my spare time. I could go on and on but I am sure I contribute just as much to the British society as a non-muslim. Paul, When I wrote that I despair about muslims I was talking about palestine! Jews and muslims fight ing each other! I was talking about Kashmir! I suffer when humans suffer I work in Government on Policy so I very much understand current issues. The British is a tolerant society but I think you need to read up about Islam and muslims before you speak. You seem to have a lot to say yet your theories and views expressed about me are incorrect. I am British born here but I am a muslim in faith. Why are you all quarelling about stupid things. There is reason for everything. Each and every religion, i believe teaches almost the same thing but only practise it differently. I believe each and every religion in the world teaches us to be tolerant to each other not just inter religion. Islam is a passionate religion that teaches to be grateful for every single thing that god created. Those who you see killin & doin ungrateful things dont understand islam and therefore are just islam by name. I am not Muslim. However, I am aghast at the French ruling over banning headscarves in public schools. I believe that my not being Muslim emboldens my belief because I have no 'reason' to be concerned, per se. For us 'regular' citizenry that remain open-minded, non-confrontational and progressive, overall. It is egregious that we lack a voice on such matters. We teach both our children that diversity is key to a purposeful existence. Please host an open forum for all to be heard. WHEN has the colonisation stopped, when has your two faced foreihgn policy stopped, your actions kill millions, and you then turn around and ask us why we feel sickend by you, when YOUR people die by the Many millions or thousands you will Understand, but they dont you support wars & make speeches how they are just BUt it is OUR people who die we who are oppressed, Paul I dont want you to tolerate me, JUST DO NOTHING dont give weapons to dictators DONT interfer in other nations JUST DO NOTHING STOP with your boring stuff about colonialism and oppression!!! That's history by now. Will you ever understand that without the western colonization our countries couldn't develop and your folks would not have had the chance to come here and raise you? When will you start to contribute to this society you are part too? Do you prefer the brutal governements of your countries of origin? Get lost then!! Mohammed says he despairs when he sees Muslims in pain. He should despair when he sees ANY human in pain. Only then can he expect others to be tolerant to him. Al Khalid: "Hatred" is such an extreme and dangerous emotion. And the "revenge" you want also sounds very dangerous. No wonder so many people are deeply concerned about Muslim fanatics. How can you expect us to "tolerate" you??? Islam is an ideology that has rules and regulations which cover all aspects of life.At the moment there are no Muslim countries in the world, only "so called Muslim countries".Most Western countries like England are more closer to practicing Islam i.e. look at their judical,health systems etc.I agree with many people that Muslims in their own countries and out of their countries do not understand Islam and therefore cannot practice it and as a result they give Islam a bad name. Marina we hate the UK havign a foriegn policy which for centuries not decades has caused chaos and misery across the World, Palestine, kashmir only a few areas where Muslims are oppressed because of British forighn policy, Muslims feel this death & oppression in iraq etc in our Hearts and it causes us pain which turns to anger, which turns to hatred many if not most Britsh muslims still love our country BUT inside we have masses of anger at hypocrite politicans and governments & we want revenge, To those fello English be they Muslim or not happy new year. To me anyone born here is English and I love it that English people who have parents from other backgrounds such as Hussain can captain our country. To those muslims here that don't like being british I ask you this. Do you hate being able to practice your religion, do you hate being able to dress as you like, do you hate having the freedom to say what you want? or do you hate having a say in government? Just let us know it would help! Feeling British isnt important.
I am proud to be a British Muslim. What I mean by this is I am a muslim living in the UK. We are so wrapped up in identity and nationalism we forget we are muslims. I have no problems with anyone but I hate it when people with brains the size of a pea accuse all muslims of supporting terrorism. Muslims are peace loving people maybe if people observed muslims they may learn just how peaceful islam is! I think Jo hit the nail on the head! I also want to say that I despair when I c muslims in pain! Does this question really matter? I was born and raised in East London, im of Pakistani heritage. I can not pretend to be English, because I am not accepted as an englishman, When I go to Pakistan, I am considered to be English, despite having impeccable Urdu. I support the England football team and the Pakistan cricket team, but neither are home. Only being a muslim is a real identity, although one must respect the law of the land and try to integrate with those of other faiths and cultures. I'm an English agnostic, living with 2 Muslims, a Hindu & a Catholic. We all get along well & I have learnt a lot about the Islamic faith in recent months. I have never judged anyone on the basis of their religious values, however, I do not claim to have always understood such values. Yet thru open discussions with my flatmates, I feel educated in the ways of Islam, Hinduism and Catholicism. I believe educating people in the ways of other religions is the way to peace and understanding. Why cannot people just get along with each other? Does it matter what colour your skin is, where you were born or what religion you are? The fact is that we are all HUMAN.
For me identity has different layers I was born in Bradford. My Parents hail from Kashmir therefore i would say I was a British Kashmiri my religious identity is muslim The recent proposals by the french to ban headscarves is another swipe @ the people who want religion to play a big part of their life, this will be the start of a wave of new moves to change our religion.The longer we leave the idea of creating an islamic state (in a Muslim Land), the more damage they will do to our religion and our brothers and sisters in the muslim world. There is over 2.3 billion muslims in this world and growing, why can we not create a one caliphate, who will protect us. larry you have been watching too much tv. the vast majority of muslims are not associated with terrorism. it's understandable that some people are angry at military action on muslim populations. in britain there is a huge muslim population and so far there is no war here in Leeds. Isn't that what the terrorists want? People need to show some unsderstanding and tolerance. Al, if few muslims hate all westerners you better get the word out. it seems to most that the hate coming out of the madrasas is a danger and is associated with extremism. why else would the french, lovers of liberalism, be banning head scarfs in school? by not speaking out agains terror muslims have as a whole associated themselves with it. as more muslims speak out against the counties they live in, about how they hate their own countries, i do not think this association is going away soon. Jim few Muslims hate all westerners living here you see the evil/bias people but you also see the many kind people the good teachers who help u your friends and people u meet in stores so Muslims like most westerners BUt when ever we see Muslims killed we are angry everytime we see a muslim in iraq pushed around humiliated and have a bag put over his head by western soldiers we have an explosion of anger within us the foreighn policies of wesern countries that cause so much death causes anger Many westerners hate the lies and hypocrisy of our government and especially the Americans. Look at the war protests, and anti-Bush protests.
If Islam is such a wonderful, peaceful, religion, why are so many Asylum seekers, Muslim? I dont think any Muslims feel british or american or anything except muslim anymore i am surprised british people or westerners are surprised that muslms are extremly angry, most of us were born in the west we like our homes and land but since the iraq war most of us feel hatred for the rest the lies the hypocricy has made us bitter and resentfull the day they attacked iraq it was like =hand reached down and ripped your britishness & every time we see an iraqi killed or with a bag over his head Say what you like but britain and most of the west are christian countrys our laws were first derived from the 10 commandments (thou shall not kill,thou shall not steal e.t.c..)and if you look closely our laws still mimic them today.It seems if muslims are not fighting the west they fight each other,i wonder how many british(or not british as many of them say) muslims would be willing to give up there uk passports,free health care,free education and benefits.I bet i could count them on 1 hand Dear all,
What i am is a muslim, anything else is just a situation in which i am present. The fact that I am British is a situation, in the same way that i am pakistani, and a man. All these factors are irrelevant to the true identity. Identification is not limited to being one or the other, i am a man and british at the same time,but the true identity, which is of the bigger picture is ones faith, and that for sure is being a muslim. Everything else is limited to the factors of this life. British or Muslim?
Being British and being Muslim, I feel qualified to share my thoughts on the society today. Sadly, I feel most of the British Muslims are wrong and have a distroted view on fairness and equality for all beliefs.
I am a muslim,AfricanAmerican,female, New Yorker,student etc.However,here in the States my muslim identity is more salient since we are fewer, but when I traveled to Mecca everyone was muslim so I felt so different.Everyone has a desire to be accepted but here my identity of American is not accepted because I am not Non-White/Christian.In the end, all that will matter is our belief and the deeds we have put forth not what land we are from, our facial feautures,ancestry or the language we speak. You can see just from looking over this page that muslims and non-muslims will never get on, our beleifs are just too different. We're told to treat each other as equals but why should we when the government does not? Taking the crosses off buns is one example of the ridiculously over sensitive attitude adopted by parlament, I doubt there is a muslim here who is really bothered by a cake. Something has to be done before this melting pot of different cultures boils over and we all get scalded. I tried to send a message to the Muslim News, but the link appeared to be broken. I will send the message in this forum instead.
Faisal:Avicena is NOT the father of modern medicine it is the Ancient Greek Hyppocrates. Yes I do agree that if not for the muslims Aristotle would be buried many more years. But at the same time, Greece was under the muslim ottomans and had no freedom, no right to practise christinity.I am from lebanon,and palestinians are badly treated from their own arab brothers, algerians are killing the innocent algerians so fight for them too don`t always attack the west for what the muslims are doing. If Islam forbids pork alcohol and pornography then why does the Muslim owned convenience store just around the corner from where I live have copious amounts of these items for sale as do the many other Muslim owned stores up and down this country?
Why is it the british have to change so many of their ways for muslims. We have had hot cross buns banned, the george cross banned, nativity plays banned in schools. And now we have the ridicoulous situation where the official christmas card for the government features no christian images yet features muslim and hindu images. Added to the fact muslims get extra time off or ramadan etc, which christains cannot and it seems discrimination.. but against christains in favour os muslims Khalid, you act as if all western countries are murderers, and islamic countries are not. In fact islamic countries are amongst the most brutal and backwards in the world. I notice you refer to them as "my soldiers", implying you dont consider yourself british. if this is correct, then please leave . Muslims claim they hate britain yet they arrive in tens of thousands, using events decades ago to justify it. Many are sick of keeping you economically when you spit in our countries face. Chris Islam forbids targetting of civillians and muslims abide by that law BUT just like u taint ALL Muslims with wanting to kill innocent civillians WE SAY DEMOCRACY DICTATES THAT THE WILL OF THE GOVERNMENT REFLECTS THE WILL OF 100% OF THE POPULATION the MASS MURDER of MILLIONS of innocent humans beings by YOUR government BY YOUR SOLDIERS and by YOUR COUNTRY spread loathing and hate for YOU HOW are u innocent you support your country and government and that country kills MILLIONS through policy Assalamu Alaikum,
It would appear that the majority of Muslims feel that belonging to Islam comes before being British. So why then do many Muslims decide to move to this sin filled island rather than the Islamic countries that exist? There they would be surrounded by people with the same beleifs as themselves, who follow Islamic law and they would not have to coexist with the immoral Kafirs living in the UK. It would seem than neither Britain nor Islam come first for muslims, its money. Actually khalid i was against the war, and i will be voting accordingly in the elections. I was angry but i didnt get an urge to go and blow up people who had nothing to do with the decisions. It is the attitude that the war justifies TARGETTING civilians by terrorist muslims, many of them british that is so sickening. With many british muslims seemingly supporting terrorism on civilians and even charities such as the recently attacked red cross how can you expect to be welcome in the country? Chris OVER 20,000 Muslims are dead in iraq TODAY more turmoil, more misery and death thats why ANGER exists because today you do THE SAME THINGS AS IN THE PAST if u changed or stopped like u said there would eb NO anger but u havent ur nation keeps killing and we suffer.
Khalid you keep going on about crimes commited by people long dead. The crimes being done by so called "british muslims" with suicide bombs are here and now. Nothing justifies targetting civilians, regardless of the percieved injustices in the middle east. The official "British Muslim Council" line is that muslims deplore the targetting of civilians and obey the laws of the country they live in , that is cleary untrue. How are innocent civilians responsible for their goverments actions?. Also chris I am here because i was born here and this is my home, JUST because i think society is honourless and moraless dosent mean i leave my home, My parents were legal immigrants to Britain we havent forced anythign But British peopel went to australia, NZ south africa Zimbabwe America and killed MURDERED millions to take/steal the land anf force their own laws that is far far worse then muslim anger in the UK, if u want us to leave then all those people have to come back here too New UK law states that muslims may take time off work on their religious days, does this mean all other religions will get extra days off or will muslims be working Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year's Day? Also in my town at the local community centre there is an exercise class for muslim women only, what is wrong with the rest of the female population attending this class?
Khalid you proved my point, you argued that targetting civilians (who by the way have nothing to do with their goverments policy on israel or iraq) is justified.
Chris terrorism is a tool of the weak and oppressed you dont choosh to to fight back in such ways you choosh to have an army with jets and missiles but 9/11 was NOTHING compared to the Muslims killed across the world every year by western forighn policy the NAGER IS IMMENSE IT IS ENOURMOUS and YET AGAIN you kill muslims in iraq to remove a secular dictator YOU supported and funded invade our land and then force feed us ur ideology YES WE ARE ANGRY yes terrorism will spread because of your action Wasim: If when muslims TARGETTED civilians such as in istanbul, or 9/11 the majority of muslims condemned this then you would be welcome. However muslims in britain for economic benefit do not.They instead justify the attacks on civilians by pointing to iraq and israel, as if "two wrongs make a right".I find islam terrifying, as it is one of hatred, and intolerance and terror. At the recent protests i saw "british muslims" burn the union jack. And it gave us islams true colours, hatred . I not live in UK but I have something to tell to every muslims who live in UK. I think that every muslims who live in UK have to feel muslim before british because religion is most prominent that nationality. Nonetheless, all the british muslim community have to be proud to live in UK because in this island, they can live with lot of harmony islam and that's not the case in lot of country such as France (where I live).
Mark NO ONE has said its wrong for english people to identify with their country, we ONLY say that our faith forbids nationalism because it is a man made concept which divides humans upon worhtless basis it creates hatred and wars invasions and problems, in islam a human must be judged on iman [faith and belief] But we are NOT welcomed in the UK we are told to assimilate or we are rejected but we dont care so if we are not welcomed the ONLY thign we can do is support people who we identify with Wasim fan, you can't sit there and say its wrong for English people to identify with their own country, but say its fine for "Pakistani" (even though they are born in england and therefore should consier themselves English) people to do so. Johnny we dont want our faith forced on you, we dont want ANYONE interfering with Islam, muslims, muslims lands or supporting dictators or people who do that. I couldnt care less if you became muslim infact i dont want you to yet you attempt to force msulims to ASSIMILATE NOT intergrate you try to make us lose our beliefs and accept things un-acceptable to us and when their is a backlash you blame it on us, our home land is our home land i was born under the rain of Brum not Pakistan but i dont Dr. Syed: Have you ever realized that what you just said about the muslim religion is exactly what all the other religions want? But, obviously, only you muslims are right whereas all the others are poor damned and lost unless they become muslim like you. We, non-muslim British do not want your fundamentalist ideas along with the scientific rubbish written in your quran. This is the only problem that causes such hatred among us. There is nothing like that among other cultures integrated in U.K. Muslim try to follow Quran This the only solution of their problem
Hey Mark cricket is a sport alot of muslims of Pakistani decent love it its a great game but we feel no connection with English cricket most "British muslims" live in cities most English cricket is from county area's and the bulk of english support comes from those area's also we are not made to feel welcome or NO connection has been made with english cricket we can IDENTIFY with the Pakistan team and players also they are an amazingly tlaneted team and always have been pluc our dads supported t Mark: Agreed there is no place for nationalism in Islam. The zealous youth you see supporting pakistan areaffected by nationalism and need to be corrected. There need to be a similar discussion with them. As for neil, instead of insulting people why not make constructive comments to back your idea. Most of our parents came here cos you colonised our lands, needed cheap labour after the war, As for economic migration then well swap places with all the british in oil rich muslim countries. One thing that puzzles me: nationalism is so anathema to muslims, why are so many "British Muslims" happy to turn out and support Pakistan en masse at cricket? Surely if they were against nationalism they would spurn such sporting events no matter what country was being represented, whether the UK or pakistan. Khalid: you wouldn't leave the land of your birth? Why is that? It means nothing to you. You were born here just because your folks migrated for economical purposes and to have a better life than anywhere in the muslim countries (pack that stuff of foreign british policy; we've got nothing to do with what our governement decides in secret). We fought for centuries the brutality of religious laws and you want us to recognise your medieval religion and customs after that? Get lost! bismAllah Al Rahman Al Raheem
I would define my identity as just Muslim. The fact that i live in the UK makes no difference. Even if the UK had a good foreign policy with the muslim world, which they don't, I still wouldn't call myself British-Muslim or anything like that. I do support English sporting teams abroad though because i was born here so i guess i feel British in that respect. Maria most of us knwo exactly what christianity and trust me to most british people christianity is NO MORE then christmas trees & Easter eggs if they dont care about christianity why should we, also as a Minority we are in the perfect position to observe general society, just because we are not fond of the state of society dosent mean we will get up and simply leave the land of our births centuries of hypocricy hasent ended in the west and Muslims are angry about it but our homeland is our home Can you beleive what the euro MP dennis Mcshane said that muslims ahve to chose between british values and terrorism? IS he saying British muslims are terorists? OR islam is terrorist? The muslims ahve condemed terrosism long before the british govt was supporting tyrants like sadam. And where is the condemnation of American terrosim or israeli or indian? MR MCshane need to question his governements foreign policy, which over decade have not stood for peace but for colonisations and exploitation Maria: why all the emotion. the discussion is on what values and who decides them?.The muslims are not compalining but highlighting some of the injustices and misrepresentations. If the native people are fed up then that shows that they have never really accepted differences. And how long have they been natives? It is also very easy to say leave if you dont like it instead of discussing the value systems. As for the british foreign policy many non muslims are against it. are they to leave also? I am appalled by the muslims that are posting messages on this forum. If you don't like it here even if you were born in the UK, by all means leave! The White British ( native peoples) are fed up with your ungrateful attitudes. We are fed up with your constant complaints, You are always saying that we are not learning about your "islamic values", do any of you try to learn about Christianity? It's not about having a christmas tree and eating chocolate eggs, but reading our Bible.Shame on you! Salam aleykum and greetings from the heart of Arabia!
Why Muslim Ummah is faceing war and leabled as Terrorist arround the world? because we have moved away from Sunnah,If we all muslim live our life according to Sunnah
Mohammed Islam is a way of life a code of existence not just a religon it GUIDES ALL ASPECTS OF YOUR LIFE marriage is half of Islam so it is important we marry within the boundary of what islam allows so we can implement islam RACE is not an issue my own auntie is white but she converted befor she met by uncle muslims marraying muslims of all races is OK but MARRYING OTHER FAITHS destroyes the implementaiton of islam in the home so is not acceptable, you cant implement islam without true faith salaam alaikum.brothers and sisters
muslims should learn to get along with each other. that is the only way muslims will be able to counteract the accusations levelled against them. by this i dont mean we should go around in large groups and beat up every non muslim that we meet. i mean that we should help each other out of hardships and give as much help as we can to our muslim neighbours Muslims DO NOT want to foce our way of life upon the UK thats IMPOSSIBLE, but we feel we are forced to assimilate fprced to be somethign we are not, forced to not speak out against things which we see as un-just or hypocritical if we speak out we are labelled Terrorist or UN-patriotic and should be kicked out, Abu Hamza etc is a right wing version of the resulting anger of watching daily humiliating of your people in places like iraq, im afraid the iraq war has affected many UK muslims negativly I have a serious question for muslims, driven by a desire to understand. Much coverage has been given to british muslims celebrating 9/11, insisting britain must become islamic, and encouraging british muslims to travel to afghanistan etc to fight british soldiers. Do you feel this is the true face of islam, or a tiny minority of muslims blown out of proportion by the media? Shabir,most brits welcome different views. What we object to are scenes such as abu hamza etc calling for britain to become an islamic state, and calling us evil, while claiming full benefits from our country. Khalid, disagreeing with the goverment, heck many do. However, condeming britain, and unfairly portraying british people (as a bunch of peadophiles for instance)Is bound to make people question why you live here.If you dont try to force your beliefs on others then there is no problem Neil ALL societies change the values they hold are not forever, for example 100-300 years ago British people felt it was OK to kill and massacre black africans or inncnets in the world to STEAL their land, I on the other hand was BORN here i dont want the land of my birth destroyed, but that dosent mean i agree with what human society deems right and wrong is being british simply that you nod and agree with everything society or the government says, i am britsh and want more honour in my country Baz: I used to live in the UK. IT is not a christian country but a capitalist country ever since religion was separated from state. Most people believe in darwins theory and others are agnostics or athiests. However your views contradict capitaism and expose there is no real freedom of thought
Mark: a genralisation may be an exaggeration but in no way is it racism. At the end of the day you should explain to us you values and the rationale for them. For anyone to question values and hold a different set of values is not racism. As for Baz : that the typical non intellectual comment for those who cannot rationalise their stance. As for nationalism, it cannot give solutions to problems. people should be bonded by common thoughts not nationalism. The thing is, you keep saying nationality is meaningless. Yet you stay in britain. In britain national identity is alive. If you dislike british values so much, why not go to a country where your values are the norm. And a country where you are not a detriment to the country and are welcome. If britain is such an awfull place in your eyes, why not leave, britain would benefit, and so would you in your eyes. This is a christian country. Perhaps you could all do the British a favour and toddle off to another Muslim nation to peddle your bullshit.
I hate to break this to you Anina, but being Brit does not mean "going to pubs, child molestation, adultrey & homosexuality". Well, maybe with the exception of the pubs. The rest are sadly social problems found all over the world.
Tariq: Just because you were born into a muslim family doesnot make you knowlegeible about it as you comment shows. in Islam everything is backed up by evidence. the beleif is backed up by rational evidence and the rules by the textx of islam. IF islam is based on 'fairy stories' you just have to produce one chapter like the quran. In reality you problably have never studied nor reasearched islam for yourself, never looked into its civilisation and have allowed this society to mould your views. Tariq you have NO understanding of your own faith whats so ever, God forbids nationalism because it DIVIDES man kind on ridiculous imaginery boundaries, its pathetic, what holds Muslims together that is that we are one united ummah [even if it dosent seem like it at times] all land belongs to god live where you like you were born in scotland SO WHAT but what is humiliating is that you forget the basisi of your faith and choosh to place your identity simply in the man made society to which u belo I am a Scot, born into a Muslim family. I am extremely proud of my country, ie Scotland! This is the country which has shaped me as an individual and made me the adult I am today. It saddens me to read through all the racist comments presented above, and I'm talking about the anti-Western hatred and ignorance being thrown up by UK-based Muslims. The sooner the human race puts aside these ridiculous religious "fairy stories", the sooner we'll all finally be able to get along with one-another. Doesn't Rmamadhan just make you proud to be muslim. I think it a great time to discuss with non muslims and make them aware of Islam. It also shows us what we can achieve is muslims acted like they do in Ramadhan all year round.
I have been in UK al my life, but now at the age of 17, I find it difficult 2 live in the country which is brutally bombing innoncent countries. Who r we? R we really Brit? If people want answer then BNP & NF r excelent candidates, they'l tell u who we really r. We can never b Brits bcz being Brit means going to pubs, child molestation, adultrey & homosexuality. I'll say that 1 passport does nt confirm ur identity status, If the pasport is taken away then who r we? Nthing, so stick 2 ur religion I think the Local people just need to look at ramadhan and fasting by Muslims to get a real meaning of Islamic values. The Propet [pbuh] said: “Allah will bestow this reward on one who gives food to a fasting man even if it is a sip of milk or a date or a sip of water. And whosoever gives satisfaction to a man, Allah will give him a drink from my fountain that will not make him thirsty till he will enter Paradise.' Look to the poor around us today all over the world and cardboard city in London. I think adopting british values is not about eating fish and chips or the passport you carry but day to day values. IF we are truthful we can see only many problems in the society including morals ones. We also see claims that this is a multicultural society but we see other values simply lambasted and not tolerated. the only values that are tolerated are those that agree with the status quo. there is no real discussion just emotions.In this society you will never be accepted until people change Simon: Actually the number of conversion through marraige is much less than the people reverting to Islam. MOst people have questioned the current system
I consider myself as an English Muslim.....since i was born in England and i have an Islamic way of life....What does it mean to be English..? being born in England, an English passport, English Parents, grandparents?? How far do u want to go back in time to define what you are...? go back far enough and all the 'white' English were Europeans (anglo-saxons etc) so they arent ORGINALLY English either...!
Khalid, Islam is NOT growing fast in the UK through conversion - converts are around 20,000 in the UK which is absolutely nothing. It is growing because of higher birth rates, arranged marriages to people from 'back home' etc Whn British empire ruled India, Indians were forced to show their loyalty 2 Brit empire by going to WW2. In aftermath wt were we awarded, Ah lets say a split state, hatred among groups, oh and bleeding Kashmir. This shows hw loyal Brit was to its ex-empire. and knw wt they expect us 2 join in their campaign to bomb defensless countries, If this is the only way 2 prove ur British identity. Then i'll say i rather call my self a descendant of Osama Bin Laden then a Brit. I am wt my religion & culture is. When filling in a form I always tick British for nationality, bcz this is whats on my passport but,if im asked to describe myself then i am Pakistani Muslim. Recent race riots and September 11th events was a wake up call for many people like me,and know I have become more determined to have self control over my identity that is, I'm just a Muslim and a proud Pakistani, living in UK. Afterall, British people dont forget their identity whn they r in our countries. I think throughout this debate Muslims and non-Muslims have our wires crossed, Muslims dont want britain to be an islamic state, Muslims dont want islam or islamic law forced upon ANYONE, the conlict comes from Muslims being ONE UNITED FAMILY and when muslims are oppressed or killed in forgihn lands then British muslims feel compeled to support them, Yet many times that support alineates us from the mainstream & we are told we must either assiliate or get out, WE ARE STUCK I'm sorry, I apologize to make comparisons with the Ottoman empire. I know westerner christians have got the world's blood on their hands yet. I don't want to make Muslims like us but neither I want to be affected by any imposition from the Muslim culture. You'll always regard westerner's ethos as corrupted and the difference and antagonism will just get deeper and deeper. How to make a real free and democratic society where everybody is happy and lives differently? Noone expects muslims to give up their muslim identity. Just respect the laws, and the country that has given them refuge. In my opinion demanding britain becomes an islamic state, killing daughters who become to "western". Going to pakistan to fight british soldiers etc are not within these parameters. Im confused, i thought muslims where supposed to obey the laws of the country they live in?. If people dont like our laws, get into politics and change them, or simply leave the country. John Chrisianity was spread through force, the GENOCIDES in south america, North america, africa, australisia even asia were followed by colonisers forcing christianity, the Ottoman empire were muslims but hardly islamic, but look at how islam spread in the face of opposition, even today Muslims love islam and islam is the fastets growing faith in the world through CONVERSION why do you want us to forget our faith and beliefs, you commit so much crimes yet you demand muslims be just like you How about the Ottoman empire? Weren't they Muslim? That's how they islamized half world: by imposing your religion through intimidation, terror, slaughtering etc... If it wouldn't have been for the crusades (equally disgusting) now all of Europe would be muslim. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Canada, these are all places where british people forced their way of life upon other people and conuntries ontop of massacering the natives, Our religon is a way of life a code of existence and we cant implement our way of life in our own lives While Britain is off with America killing and bombing people across the planet many muslims find it absurd that they demand we be nationalistic, after the iraq war they ripped the britishness out of us Asalam Wa Alikum,I would say I was British-Muslim.I was born in England 67 years ago and a christian until I embraced Islam in 1959,so I definitely consider myself to be British.I have lived many years in arab countries,and have only settled back in the UK in the last three years.I am so pleased to find now that there are many more Muslims here than before,and also so many more mosques.Al humdillilah Muslims are very well catered for now,and Islam in the UK is the fastest growing religion. Ex-pat compound in Saudi? KL, Dubai, Morocco? What sort of example did you give? Are those Westeners integrated in the Muslim society of the country where they are? I was talking about Muslim in U.K. who wear a veil or a turban and they are allowed to join police forces or to be in places where they should not weir those funny dresses. And you want more integration that that?
It is silly to compare temporary workers in Saudi or Japan UK with British muslims who still act like they are Pakistani colonialists. Do brits in saudi: forbid their daughters to marry saudi men and kill them if they do, marry their children off to british people so as to increase the numbers of christians in saudi, constantly go on and on about britophobia while displaying immense intolerance themselves, call for the britification of saudi society, etc? James, its all very well saying you can retain your british identity. But technically speaking you will have to renounce Music now you have reverted. Imagine the UK without, variously, Last Night of the Proms, Glastonbury, the Opera House, Notting Hill Carnival... These things are all vital to what makes Britain a decent country. John: have u ever been to the ex-pat compound in Saudi? or the holiday beaches that the Westerners flock to? Have u been to KL, Dubai, Morrocco. These places are more Westernised than London. Frankly, I think Muslims in Muslim countries are fed up of Western Capitalism, so called Democracy and Freedom being shoved down their throats. Why do you all Muslims expect to follow your traditional values and habits in Western Countries whereas Westeners cannot dream of living a Western life in Muslim Countries? Who is the fundamentalist then?
Dont blame others.Make sure children gets education.Enter valuable profession.Try 2 involve local and national politics and let know views.Media and financial control.creat jobs in ur own country .buy ur own product.good relation with all.whereever u live treat that as ur own country.allah tomakey shanti dik.help Bangladesh from Indian terrorism .Indians r killing owr Brothers every day.Stopping water flow in Bangladesh.Sabotiging business in eorope and usa. James: That's all fair and well. but what happens when the values conflict? Did you support britain attcking Iraq? Do you support the foreign policy including selling arms to the third world? What do you say about the values instilled in youngster leading to drugs abuse, what do you say about capitalism ? And how what about the social system and the bias media? You are a muslims in britain but you can only have the islamic identity Just like the Prophet [pbuh] born in Mecca but called to Islam. I am a white middle-class male aged 29. I have recently reverted to Islam and consider myself to be a British Muslim. I still follow England at all sports and regarding my views on my own nationality nothing has changed. What I will say is that I feel a strong bond to my Muslim brothers across the world; something I never felt toward fellow Christians. Islam has not changed my identity although it has made me open my eyes and respect other people and cultures. it seems that everyone defending british values as yet to put up any rational argument for them, what are these values and who decides them? We have seen emotional rhetoric of nationalism, patriotism and get out of here if you don't like it. This is precisely the response the thinkers get in the 16th century when they questioned the church. However the sons of these liberals have stopped questioning. Presumably they want all the academics who question varoius theories of state to leave also? Sally: You may well have friends who are black, asian, hindu. chinese etc and this tolerance is superficial.how Anyone can be ok with each other if you cast away your real identity. All of us need to live in a society and what we are debating is which set of values to live by and which system.
Islam forbids nationalism because it is another corrupt human concept which divdes human beings based upon imagnery human boundaries and races and colours, islam is a way of life which is meant to unite all humanity thats why Muslimswherever they are male or female, old or younf regardless of colour arent supposed to be nationalistic and instead hold themselves as muslims and the unity they feel for humans regardless of their colour or race or which human country they lie in is most important I'm amazed at the hatred and lack of understanding people have for each other.Some of you are living far far in the past.What counts is today, and today I have great friends who are chinese,sikh, black,asian,muslim,christian, hindu,white...and because I have all these people in my life I have become a better and well educated person.At the end of the day we are all human beings and therefore should treat each other as such.Religion nor nationality should get in the way of respect for each other Steve: Nationalism is cause of most of the border disputes and fighting in the world. Nationalism is an emotional bond. It arises ndue to human wanting mastership over their family then tribe and then nation. it is a sub human bond as we can see in the animal kingdom. The fact that you had not choice where you were born. the binding of people must be based on thought and not basic instincts alone. The other point the people who colonised india may be dead but neo colonialistion is alive. EVERY Muslim love the land of their birth as do I I was born in Britain under the rain and slouds not under the hot asian sun my love for My land of birth is second to my love of God and his will, It is NOT BRITAIN we hate Muslims are angry with its governemtn and society who has failed us and abuses us and FOR CENTURIES has commited actions that has caused Muslims ACROSS the planet pain, today is the lies and HYPOCRICY that attacked our Ummah in Iraq how can we give love for such a government The people who captured india etc are long dead. As anne said, many in britain feel a strong sense of nationality, it is part of british citizenship. If muslims feel britain is corrupt, morally wrong etc. Then fine, but stop coming her by the thousand. And if loyalty to britain is impossible then to take citizenship is to lie, loyalty is a condition of it. renounce your citizenship,if you feel nothing for the country whatsoever, that sentiment is valid for all citizens regardless of religion btw It is easy to understand that for the Muslim eyes UK is consumerist and lacks personal morals. However, as Muslims residing in UK, take into consideration that secular nationalism is our equivalent of your religious umman. Being a citizen means identification and loaylty toward and the willingness to die for one's country (e.g. WW II). Incompatible with Islam as this is, yet the West holds it true. That's why the 'go home' rhetorics, you appear treasonable and insult their initial hospitality. John: IT not just an accusation it a fact. O so it relative now ! one form of colonialism ie the british was better than the belgain.Imposing a foreign culture is exactly what the british did with the education system in India. Ask mcaulay. As for imposing one system or another we nee to know which system is correct rationaly and does it provide solutions to problems. Christianity was removed from lifes affairs in the 16th century in europe. The sytem in place today is capitalism. Loyalty to your country is not one way. British born Muslims will be aware of:
it's very well to name countries of the world where british people live, and accuse those people of butchering natives, but you should bear in mind that, for example, the rule of the Congo by Belgium was far less enlightened than the British rule of India. The truth is that, at 4% of the population, the majority will resent it if you try to turn Britain into a colony of Pakistan. Indeed, 4% is roughly the percentage of whites in Pakistan, and how would you feel if we used Christian law there? PART 1 - Ironically, living in Britain has made me a better or practicing Muslim - I think. The education I received in the UK and probably more importantly parental influence made me take a harder look at society in general and helped in my decision to become a stronger Muslim. By just being a good neighbour we can dispel the negative myth that exists about Islam. Remember, its our actions that speak the loudest. Brits are a good bunch. The leadership on the other hand is another matter. Britain is my home, not my families. I is very happy here and have been for 25 months. I will stay. To Moshe Ebrahimi:
Salaam,
Salam!
All land belongs to the One who Created it (Allah). Muslims must abide by Allah's laws regardless where they live. Many people who disbelieve and disobey Allah in the past have been destroyed (Ad, Thamud, Firaun etc...) so this idea that we are 'British' or 'Pakistani' should not be the issue. When we die we're not going to be a 'British corpse'. We will be slave of Allah who will return to him and be accounted. As for 'home', you'd call timbuktu home if you live there. ALSO STEVE THE PAST ISNT ATONED FOR AFTER CENTURIES OF MURDER AND BUTCHERY COUNTRIES LIKE BRITAIN were never punished for their crimes against humanity after World war 2 these countries carried on IN THE SAME WAY the world suffers because of the greed of the west 3rd world nations need to stand up and oppose western heganomy, if there was a different & just world power i wuld expect countries like UK to be punished for their centuries of crimes but they wont until the current sitation remains Kalid blaming the past for the abject failure of islamic countries is not a valid excuse. Its comical to read people deny the brutality common in islamic countries, murders, honour killings, executions et. The facts are simple, thousands of muslims are fleeing their failed countries to live and leach from britains prosperity. They are a strain, and instead of being grateful for sanctuary spit in the face of western society. If you dont think your british then WHY did you accept citizenship? When I was a child I beleived Islam was a violent religion. I thought the desert sun had fried these peoples brains so they acted like apes. My ideas came from this corrupt society, I was dependant on the thoughts of those around me. Now I am an adult, & have no excuse. I do not copy the thoughts of society, but investigate the truth 4 myself, & try 2 live accordingly. Islam is the ONLY TRUTH! Euros R jealous of Islam, but this is not an excuse. Their kids/grandkids will account them 4 arrogance Scott: just the kind of shallow, narrow minded response we have come to expect. What makes britain your country ? Are you celtic, norman, French, roman or what?What makes this country yours? did you have a say in where you were born? What about the people born in india when the british ruled it? And what about the thousand that live in the gulf with tax free salaries? On your premise why don't you get out of iraq, the gulf, india, malaysia, japan, Germany etc... I would label my self as a muslim because religon is the first part to my identity and no one can change that because thats who i am. i dnt bliv in teroism and i respct others and luv evry1 arond me and am stil a good muslim and i fink dats da strongst fing of all. I am a Muslim I do not belive in nationalisim I am a human. I do not agree with the killing of inocent people but I do belive in self defence. the way western news reportes matters ie palastine they show israelis as victims when the reality is that the palastinines are the victims. same in afghanastan and iraq. israel bombed suyria saying it was a terror camp so it was ok but if suyria bombs back they will be called terrorists. israel has more weapons of mass D then any one else.No Nationalisim Hey Scott for centuries you people have gone across the planet massacering, butchering, and murdering, i'll give you a deal we'll leave the country we were born in when you take back all the zimbabweans, australians, New Zealanders, americans who went to innocents peoples nations massacred, raped and butchered them and stole their land and now occupy it, DOES THAT SOUND FAIR TO YOU. EVEN TODAY you commit imperialistic attrocities and you expect Muslims and the third world to REMAIN SILENT. Please just get out of my country. Your not English, Your not Welsh and your Not Scots
steve: And we have witnessed massive arrests of pedeophiles including in the police, drugs, gun crime, racism, intolerance, colonisation, support of dictatorship here in britain. Yes there are sublime value in islam not compatible with man made values. howver islam did not sanction taking the law into your hand but has an all encompasing legal system to deal with societal issue. the fact is there is such thing as honour in islam but no such thing in the hedonistic and decadent culture in West. Islam now has a firm foothold in britain, however its presence is not a benefit to britain in any way. Terrosism, intolerance of other cultures, hatred of the west all seem part of the islamic "package". The west is derided yet just recently britain witnessed an "honour killing" of a young woman so common in islamic countries. Her crime?..being to "western". The claims that islam is a part of our society, and the idea of "british muslims" are frankly nonsensical. Reiko: I think if you studied details of islam you would be less scared. the western media after 9/11 has
Every morning I wake up I am aware that I am a muslim in the individual sense. I define myself as a muslim in Britain, who appreciates other people's faiths and respects them.
Khadija,Waheed: I do agree with all what you say about the real terrorism caused by the West. However there is mainly Muslim terroristic resistence because only you have got "sacred" concepts like jihad and honour brotherood. There are other ways of fighting and the best masters could be Gandhi or Mandela. Reiko: Many other cultures and nations are indeed bullied by the west today. The resistance is predominatel;y by muslims which is agood thing. Most of the resitance is political. Howvere where our countries are occupied and the occupying force is military that where there is legitimate armed struggle. the real cause of terrorism are the policies and colonising agenda of the western forces led by the USA and britain.
Reiko what do you determine to be Terrorism was the Genocide of the native american people not terrorism was the enslavment of innocent africans not terrorism HISTORY IS VIEWED THROUGH THE EYES OF THE VICTOR 2day the west is in power so any action commited against it is deemed evil and terrorism ANYTHING western countries have doen over the last few 100 years is forgotten or glossed over and current actions of MASS OPPRESSION are also glossed over and made legit terrorism is the tool of the weak reiko:
Khadija:I have not any empirical assumptions about the existence of God and even less I do not simphatyse with the values and acts of western governments as I tried to tell Hussain.What I notice is that the terrorist reactions come from Muslims only.Many other countries and cultures are bullied by the West but they don't resolve to terrorism.And that's because Islam is based on hatred and intollerance of anything that is not like it. It seems to me the problems lies in the mis information and judgements people like Reiko carry.
Reiko:The discussion we need to have then is about proof of the creator, proof of revelation and the evidences for all other things.
Reiko HUMANITY IS CORRPT our laws or sense of right and wrong is determined by our own thoughts and perspective BUT WHO SAID WE WERE PERFECT our laws are an reflection of this in-perfection BUT HALF THE WORLD SUFFERS IN POVERTY WHILE THE OTHER HALF RAPES THE THRID WORLD OF ITS RESOURCES we do not live in a fair world Muslims are guided by an eternal divine will you wish to force us to abide by your corrupt ideals of life and cause us NOTHING but misery, this misery turns to hate stop the MISERY Confused! Converted to Islam in 1990 but now confused as to the real purpose of Jihad. Is this now really a war against Terrorism or more realistically a war against Islam? Where should I Turn for guidance?
Dear Khadija,
I feel no sympathy for patriots who consider it an affront for muslims to attack british values. If we reverse their argument, what are they doing in this forum? If they don't like us discussing how to defend our identity from corrupt secular values, then maybe they should leave this forum.
Why would anyone be proud of living in britain? It's not your choice or part of your identity. In UK you are being forced to compromise or hide Islamic identity all the time. As a Muslim you strive to live according to halal and avoid haram, and this is what forms your character and identity. You are not a different person just because you live in the west, you just face different problems, and you see the evil corruption of a godless society close up. I was christian now muslim. I love muslims! We know there are lot of problems in muslim countries but that is not an excuse to attack Islam. After 9/11 how many non muslims were attcked in muslims countries, compare that to arrests, harrasssment, physical and verbal attck on muslims in US and Uk? all cos of the media hype. All negatives are shown about the muslim world. What about thousands of tourists who recieve excellent hospitality from muslims.Why don't they all speak out? cos it muslim bashing time and they don't want to be heard. Why is it that europeans think they are right and everyone else is wrong? why should the muslims follow european ideas, experiences and leave their own culture. Even the separation of church and state was based on a compromise. How come the intellectuals who said their is no god eventually compromise with the church and separate it from life. either there is a god or there isn't. Once your convinced there is, the creator decides his realm not the created. The creator decides the system and value Reiko:
Its no suprise, that some non-muslims,revert to the BNP style rehtric," If you don't agree with us leave our country".The western way of life, capitalism is on it's last leg. The intelectual superiority of Islam and the bancrupt ideas of Capitalism is evident from the actions of their own Governments. They have failed to convince the muslims countries of their ideas, whilst muslims in the west itself have rejected them also.They revert to military force abroad and bully boy tactics at home. Abu: I agree, should all the british workers and immigrants in Arab counties be made to sit a test
hussain: nobody is talking about imposing views in this forum but to have a contructive debate on values. IF any imposing has been done it by those who blindly follow the media or society without question. The establishment has also imposed a war on iraq that the people were against, draconian legislation, it wants a test in britishness and is about to introduce ID cards. IT rub salt into the wounds it has been less than truthful with the whole issue of WMD and iraq. Reiko:
Nick : Introduction of Islam allows the people to look at a different culture, question it and their own stand point and make conclusions them selves instead of being informed by secondary misinformation. Islam has a 1400 year history. check out the original souces in this global age.
WHY must views be imposed upon others, I admit i have little respect for many of the lifestyles most british people lead they have no morality or honour BUT SO WHAT its not my life and if they dont impose their beliefs on me or muslims then they can do whatever THE BRITISH WANT MUSLIMS TO ASSIMILATE NOT INTERGRATE to intergrate we becme part of the society, to assimilate we lose our beliefs and adopt beliefs which contradict our faith, Islam is a way of life a code of exitence NOT a PT Religion To nawaz, how is introducing islam a benefit to britain?. I have listened to muslims such as abu hamza and the group Al Muhajiroun and what they preach, is quite simply hatred and intolerance. Some muslims may have been born here, but every day more are given refuge, then spit at the society that has allowed them entry. Islam is an intolerant religion it has no place in britain. I have yet to hear a reason why muslims come here and stay if they hate our society. My guess is free hand outs Umm:
Rebecca:
Umm:
Rebecca:
Nick: Yes the idea of british muslims may be contractictory but
From reading the comments its obvious the idea of "British Muslims" is a myth. Muslims live in britain because it affords them a higher standard of living than any Muslim country. Muslims use Britain but do not belong here or contribute to it in any positive way.
I am a Muslim and this can only mean one thing that I'm a slave of Allah, my life, my death and my wealth are for the cause of Him and his Messenger (s). How does a person geographical location of residence, passport or language have a role to play in defining his view towards life. This is a question of alliegence to the doctrines of Islam or the doctrines of secularism. There is no room within Islam to support secularism in any manner whatsoever, which is the cornerstone being British. To Umm: sorry but your comments are precisely why many Westerners think that Muslims have utterly failed to grasp our culture. For you overt sexuality is shameful; for us, it is not. Women can be and are abused both in Western AND Islamic cultures but, as a Western woman who has travelled widely in the Muslim world, I can assure you that I have far greater rights and freedoms in the West than in any Islamic country. It's unbelievable that the discussion always amounts to 'if you don't like it leave the country.' do that mean that all the thinkers of enlightenment should have left europe just beacuse they did not agree to the prevalent values or questioned them? It just goes to show the intolerance that exists is society for different values and cultures.
Andrew and Price; The woman is viewed no more that from the sexual aspect and not by her intellectual capacity. What has a wman got to do with selling a car?
Bilal: Sorry sir i have been out of this forum due to illness. Howvere you assertion about freedom and islam. Islam indeed freed man from being slave to man. however it did not give him freedom but made him subservient to the laws of the creator. In the west, britain included there is no such thing as freedom. the state interveneves when its interests are treatened.Ask the author of spycatcher etc. As for citing Freedom where does it exist? there are always limits, who sets these? Only three things make me proud of being British, the Army, the Royal Navy, and the Royal Air Force. I despair of a society which cannot look after itself; a Police force which is prevented from policing; a legal system geared to arguing fine points of law rather than promoting justice; a government bound to linking us ever closer to a European union which has invented the biggest economic and agricultural farce since Adam Smith. If I was younger I'd leave. Islam's central message revolves around the freedom and responsibilkity of people, so I don't understand how a muslim could take a position against freedom. Laws, on the other hand, are a result of agreement between people in a common locality, and they can always be discussed and improved to improve people's lives. Kosser seems to be suggesting that blond women with slim figures should be banned. Why? Because you can't cope with them? Sorry,You have the attitudes of a christian firebrand from the 16th century.Only their God was different to yours.Separate looks from a perceived character.Wake up to human nature as we are all the same.Attractivenes gets attention so advertise with it.Sexual related crimes in these societies?.Other countries manipulate their figures to hide the true extent and even say some crimes don't exist.People are all the same with the same instinctive drives.Porn is not the richest industry either! ‘Nudity is forbidden in adverts’ nudity is not only about being stark naked. The stereo typical Western woman is a blond bombshell with a slim figure if that’s not a sex object!! Also Porn is the richest industry in the UK & America. You need to face the facts! All this sex & women no wonder there are so many sexual related crimes in these societies. Any one who doesn’t agree with freedom is an Al Qa’eda suspect. So face the fascism of freedom. Kosser,I refer to your comment to May-"So the bottom part of your argument is if you don’t like it go home.." She didn't say this.You may have been born here for all we know.She said you are free to leave the country.Your words betray your imagined feelings of persecution.Where do you get your ideas?Islam is not banned in the US.Defend freedom?Well its your choice to comment!If believing in Islam fully means bombing or forcing your beliefs on others then yes, these people are terrorists. Kosser,nudity is forbidden in adverts,Women make their own choice to be in adverts.they are paid.I don't see them as sex objects.Most don't.Why do you complain about this when most women don't.Question yourself.Why is it you even consider they are being portrayed as sex objects when others just see it as an advert that says nothing about the true character of the woman.Again your persecution complex is clearly visible re Al Qaeda.Answer this Kosser,did Afghanistan represent an Islamic state? I believe in the ideology of Islam, under which Muslims & non Muslims including Jews lived together in security. That is what I believe in is that a great crime under your values of freedom? Women do not want to be treated like sex objects, in almost every advert women are half if not fully naked where is the honour & dignity of women here? Am I an al qa’eda suspect for believing this, the west would probably think so…. May Aldridge, as I have mentioned before these countries do not represent Islam, far from it. So yes I agree with you they are in a terrible condition. So it’s not Islam that’s making them ‘terrible’ then what is?! Islam is as good as banned in America with the so called freedom of belief. All Muslims who want to believe in Islam fully are terrorists. So the bottom part of your argument is if you don’t like it go home.. are you not going to make offer an argument back to defend freedom? 'Hospitals owe debt to Islam' is the title to an article here.This propagates the belief by extremists that Islam is superior.Hospitals and medicine were begun by the great ancient Greek and Roman civilisations and revived in AD800 in Baghdad.We don't 'owe' a religion.These are advances made by man at times in human history.Keep religion out of it.We don't say 'Christianity owed for air travel' or 'Christianity owed for penicillin discovery'. Thankyou Naeem for your view.I wish more people had your opinion.My only wish is for people to understand common values that we all have.I read an article on what Muslims cannot do to non-Muslims eg, not steal.Does it really need to be spelled out?I am not Muslim but do not need to be told it is wrong and do not have to have to be told that it is wrong even if the other person is of a different religion!My belief is treat others as you would expect to be treated (I am not religious). Muslims living in Britain should be thankfull as they aspire to an Islamic life here. They are fortunate/blessed enough to enjoy a degree of safety afforded by the laws in Britain. We criticise the British way of life for all which is anti- Islamic; whereas a good Muslim would educate and inform their society about the dangers of such a lifestyle. We lack nothing to live and die as Muslims here. NOTHING.Think of our "Muslim" countries where you could die in sectarian violence between "Muslims". Kosser,saying go somewhere you like is not a right wing approach.Your persecution complex makes you believe it is.If I don't like living in an area I won't live there.Simple commensense.I've already told you most people feel safe to walk the streets.Don't ask again.Crimewatch merely sensationalises crime which is still statistically rare-else why show it.But to turn it around,you want everyone to conform to your beliefs and reject freedom. Not THAT is right wing.Kosser you're the same as the BNP Kosser it is a rather poor excuse to blame colonial pasts on the terrible conditions in islamic countries today. Other nations have built themselves up, without complaint. Using the past as an excuse is the habit of people who are failures.
Is that all you can resort to ‘If you don't like it this way, please remove yourself to a country you do like’ sounds like a right wing approach to me. All Muslim countries are colonies one way or another either physical or intellectual. The stats speak for the selves ever seen crime watch well that’s where there’re! Do people feel safe walking the street daytime let alone after dark using a mobile phone without having to watch their backs? What kind of freedom is this? Kosser,most people are not scared to walk the street.Rape every 2 mins?Mugging every 30sec?Check your stats are from an independent source.Please tell me where you got yours from as these are blatantly untrue, else give me your definition of rape.Elderly in homes?Take a balanced view and understand it yourself.Iran is not a colony.The young want freedom.Afghanistan wasn't a colony.Look what a disaster the Taliban were.If you don't like it this way,please remove yourself to a country you do like. Re: your article, value of muslim life.I believe adding comments about differing levels of condemnation to israel and palestine for civillian deaths is propaganda.Israels objective are militants who attack them.Civillians are killed accidentally.Hamas et al,set out to kill civillians from the start.Hence the different level of condemnation.For all Israels sins,and I am not a supporter of Israel,it chooses its targets militarily.Hamas et al do not.Stop the bombing and start the dialogue-both side May Aldridge, if we have so much freedom, why are people too scared to even walk the streets alone? Why does nearly every girl’s disappearance end up in murder? Why statistically is there a rape every two minutes? Half that in America! Why does someone get mugged every 30 seconds? And why are the elderly thrown into homes when they reach a certain age? And for your information there is no true Islamic State in the world today they are all Western colonies hence have also been poisoned by Freedom Kosser it s interesting to hear you blame "freedom" for the wrongs in society. Without freedom, you would not even be allowed to practice your religion in this country. And without freedom the muslims celebrating 9/11 would be locked up and the key thrown away.
What makes having British values better? If we take a long hard look at British society you will find A. the social life revolves around the pub – which results in pub brawls, drunken louts, the typical Yobbish behaviour, violence etc. B. Does any man let alone women feel safe walking in the street after dark? I don’t think so. This is because of the rise of rape, burglaries, gun crime etc. This is all as a result of values such as freedom. Which allows man to behave like an animal. I am a Muslim living in Britain, My parents are from Pakistan. What makes me Pakistani? I follow only the values of Islam not tradition, yes I eat chapatti’s & Curry this doesn't shape my behaviour, what does is the unIslamic traditional weddings, the nationalism which further tries to divide me from other Muslims etc. similar to being labelled British, it doesn’t mean one wears jeans, eats chips & drinks tea. Being British means to adopt Western culture even if it contradicts your Islamic culture Riz asks "what are British values?". British values are broadly the same as all Western values. We believe in the freedom of the individual so far as is possible whilst maintaining a stable society. We accept that granting freedom to individuals means that some will make mistakes, and that a minority will make serious mistakes. We also accept that, in order to be tolerated ourselves, we must tolerate others. We don't always live up to these values but we try, just as you try to live up to yours. There have been many questions and good points riased in this forum. IF we discuss these it would be better. i have still not heard a convincing answer to what are british values. Are these values superior than other cultures? and Are they to be imposed on everyone?
As salam alaikum,
Point taken that not all esterners are greedy adulterers etc but these values are promoted and tolerated. Those westeners that are opposed to this sort of behaviour need to join in the debate on values and speak out.Education may be the start but there needs to be a fundamental and truthful debate about the values suitable for a society? who decides there values? do we question them or just follow them because of tradition, media, education system or the political system. to May: it is not only muslims in uk many others that suffer injustice. that has nothing to do with britain par say but the capitalist system. the real decision makers are not the people.
I would like to see an end to people making general comments about the west or islam. Not all westerners are greedy, drug taking adulterers with a desire to fight islam. Not all muslims are terrorists who want to take over this country. There needs to be education. British school children learn French, German and Spanish. Why not Urdu, Arabic or Sorani as well? There should be mutual respect and understanding through education and integration. Its interesting to read of "injustice to UK muslims" considering the efforts that go to avoid offence at the expense of our traditions. Simple examples are the banning of hot cross buns in schools, the banning of the george cross at markets and councils. And the 500 policemen who protected Abu Hamza as he and fellow muslims spouted hatred of britain and joy at 9/11. In muslim countries, would your traditions be banned this way?. What fate would i meet if i called for a "christian state" there? Living in Britain does not make us anything more or anything less then Muslims, we are quite simply Muslims living in Britain just as Muhammad (saw) was a muslim living in Saudi Br raooif: The position of the young muslims is that they are confused. the parents nationality and tradition is often at odds with islam or sold to youngsters as islam. they are never given an intellectual understanding and the ideas in this society even id we disagree with them are passed in an questioning manner. The traditions do not stand up to questioning or the youngster see sheer hypocrisy from some of elder generation. those that stook to Islam see a bright future for their children. i think the position of young muslim in britain is that they are graduallly gettting attracted to this country and the wealth etc with a gradual erosion of there parents nationality with a breakdown of barriers i.e language and the subsequent betrayal of islam they will aspire for the "High Life" for any price, these are the rebellious secound or third generation british muslims, this indeed is today's reality whether anyone is willing to accept it or not. IF we look at the british value system it has been subject to change because traditional values could not challenge the new values
Yes i agree. There is no such thing as geographically isolated values. and even if you aregue so you will never convince anyone on emotional outburst like claiming muslims are like bnp just because they have a differnet point of view
I came across this same discussion on radio 5 live. the new test for immigrants on citizenship and british values. Now what seems to be coming out here is that we should take on british values just because we live here as they are a long tradition. what really needs to take place is a debate on what are these values? Why we should adopt them? what happens if there is a conflict of values. what if another set of values is based on stonger rationale. even in british society the values have changed The BNP or the patriots as you refer to them are a reactionary party. the bond of patriotism is a shallow bond bond arising from the survival instinct. IT is manifested when there is agression
Steve:
Almost all posts here are one of Muslim solidarity, a belief that is pro – Muslim and anti - Western in every detail. Muslims are proud of their culture, religion and ethics. So, I dare ask, what you think of the so called “patriotic” parties of this country – the British National Party and the like. Surely, even though to many here they may be your sworn enemy, they do attempt to represent the indigenous peoples in much the same fervour as your own Muslim groups in this country. Umm zainab: speaking out against what is percieved to be injust is both within the rights and expected of british citizens. However acts of terrorism so often seen by so called "british muslims" are what result in the bad feeling between none muslims and muslims. How can we feel anything but poorly for people who live here, yet try to kill our soldiers in afghanistan etc? All the Prophets[AS] came to societies they were part of but spoke out against the wrong practices. they faced ridicule, social boycott and torture for speaking the truth. Ibrahim [AS] was cast into the Fire by his people but Allah azza wa jal protected him. today all the muslims face the same ridicule and torture, both mental and physical.
Bismillah arhaman araheem. Br Abu saida: Asslamuakaum wr wb. The Messenger [PBUH] was born in Mecca but spoke out against the oppression in Mecca.He saw went on to establish Dar us islam in Yathrib [madina]. Home is where Justice is establshed and the society is based on elevated priciples which gives justice to all. In madina about half of the citizens were non muslims. since we were born here we have the right to stay but convey islam as we believe it to be true just like the Messenger [PBUH]. To nicky : Lets not get carried away by saying muslims accept British citisenship and support terrorism. In this discussion the muslims are merely debating values. Which law are we breaking by discussing? or has the Law changed to guilty until proven inncocent? And what about state terrorism perpetuated by the US and UK? or is justice one sided?
In the name O Allah the Most Gracius the Most Beneficient. I truly believe whether you are british or not is not the main issue I beleive the main issue is are we proud to be muslims? are we true muslims who practice our religion? or are just muslims by name.What makes me despair is to see our young youth off the track of Islamin this country and muslims suffering due to war. I call home where I was born
In response to Bilal the Messenger [saw] said in meethaq al madina :
I too dont understand why muslims accept british citizenship then support terrorism and go to fight british soldiers abroad. If you hate our country so much. Then either use the law to change what you hate or live somewhere more to your liking. A friend told me islam states muslims should obey the laws of the land they live in, however this clearly isnot the case.
"Saheefat AlMadinah" that was the closest document to a "constitution". The Prophet PBUH stated in it that "Muslims and Jews are one nation". Now this refers to a "geographic nation (Ummah)", since in the Madina neigbourhood there were only Muslims and Jews. There is also a "cultural nation", this is what most Muslims refer to as the Ummah. Confusing the two is one cause of the confusion here. Neigbourhood in Islam has many obligations, regardless of the religion of one's neigbour. Loyalty, coop I am a muslim, asking the question of wether i am a british muslim dosnt make sense to me, in islam there are no boundaries or nationalism, the issue of colour, race, creed, and nationality are irrelevant concepts brought about by the disbeleivers, nationlists and liberels to bring about disunity, loyalty to those other than Allah SWT and plain hatered towards those different from you, claiming that they may be less in status in some way or another.
The great majority of Muslims here express great contempt for Britain and strongly assert their refusal of any British identity. Yet when British contributors say that they don't think Muslims belong in Britain, these same Muslims attack them. Why is that? It seems hypocritical. From the messages here, it's obvious that most Muslims want no part of Britain and no Briton that I know wants Muslims here. The solution is obvious. Muslims should leave to go and live in Muslim countries. I am a Muslim and only a Muslim. Where I live is irrelevant. Britain has a good tradition of wanting to develop the full potential of each individual. Unfortunately, its leaders are the most inveterate enemies of Islam. I never despair of this hatred because Allah promises that the truth will knock the brain out of falsehood. I enjoy a good sporting contest without supporting particular nations. Home is wherever the Khilafah is re-established - until then I am merely wandering! The comments from most of the non muslims shiow a clear misunderstanding of the muslim position and many are either reactionary or informed heavily by the media propoganda. Instead of emotional outbursts like why don't you leave the country, why don;'t they ask real question, what are islamic values, what are they based upon, did islam have a civilisation, whats adavances did the muslims make and what positive contribution can they make in this society? All muslims are saying is let us discuss. to chris, The muslims do not preach hatred of the land they live in but they certainly like all
I may have been born in the Britain, but I don’t hold any British values or criteria. My values, criteria for actions, etc. all originate from Islamic sources. Therefore my identity is Muslim and only Muslim. Where I was born has not shaped my identity at all. In response to Chris, it is not the muslims who are living a lie but rather your own government, look to the lies about the Iraq dossier. Man made law can never provide security or peace for anyone let alone the muslims. There is no way you can change the policies of this country by working within a system based upon the desires of a few people at the top who will continously lie to fulfill their own selfish interests. Britain is commiting many terrorist activities alongside America in line with it's foreign policy objectives, look to any part of the world. Britain has benefitted from immigration. People like Abu Hamza represent the problem, the many muslims who become british citizens yet preach hatred of the country they are now citizens of, encouraging terrorist acts. It is clear from these forums that muslims do not consider themselves british. Disagree with our policies? fine change them using the law NOT through terrorism. Feel no loyalty to britain?, then refuse citizenship. To accept citizenship while feeling no loyalty is to live a lie. With reference to lucy and why don't the muslims leave Britain if they do not like it? Well what kind of tolerance is that of other believes and where is our right to freedom of opinion. To question the poicies and political system is the right of all and just as soon as the colonialist leave the muslims world you will see many muslims returning to their lands joined by non muslims just like the many that earn tax free saleries in the gulf and do not reliquish their british identity. Many muslims complaign that they are portrayed negatively. Yet with so many openly saying their british citizenship is meaningless. What do you expect?. With so many muslims condoning terrorist attacks, and denouncing the country they live in, it is little surprise they have a negative image. If muslims do not have any interest in british citizenship, then do not settle or stay here. Immigration is a benefit to britain. But if muslims dislike britain and so much, then why not leave?. If somone asks what Religion i am i say - Muslim, and proud, but is somone asks what nationality i am i say - British, because thats where i was born, but i am first a Muslim, and British after.
The media and the government is a problem, in the media world America or Jewish people cannot be wrong or can do no wrong, yet Muslims are always terroits or terror suspects, Islam, the second biggest religion in Britain is not protected by the Race law but Judaisum and Sikhism is, dont you find that rather odd? I have always believed britain to have benefitted from immigration in the past. But now it seems we have a new breed of immigrant, those who take british citizenship. Yet feel no loyalty to the country they have moved to.
There are some people on this list who do not have respect for the countrywhich supports them. Is it not true you choose to stay for the material comfort this country provides. If you refuse to integrate with the existing society you are free to leave and live in a muslim country. You are also free to stay and practice your religion. That is Britishness. You have no right to disrespect this ancient and noble land which has existed for 100's and 1000's of years, before Islam was even founded. In response to gary and biting the hand that feds you. With respect sir, this country needed cheap labour after the second world war
Those who claim that by being born, work and living under the british law by default you become british. So, the 30,000 or so british nationalities living and working in Saudi Arabia under the so-called "Islamic Sharia Law", would they now be classed as Muslims/Arabian? I think not, rather, it is one's culture, values and the concepts that he carries gives him his identity. Is it not true that most muslim states are nothing more than dictatorships hiding behind the quoran?.Britain is in no way perfect(where is)but it is by far better than those 3rd world tinpot countries like pakistan.People who are quite happy to take all the benefits they can and then bite the hand that feeds them are hypocrites.I am not religous and feel pity at all you sad empty people who think there is something after death,you will be dust ,thats it There can only be one path a muslim follows and that is Islam a complete way of life which has given us our identity,values and a vision for our lives this give us a strong personality.Surely we saw the best example in Muhammad (saw) while He (saw) lived and worked in Makkah he (saw)never compromised on Islam. There can be no other answer then we are Muslims and belong to one Ummah. IT seems that Britishness is being pushed down our throats with draconian legislation, a media onslaught against Muslims and Islam
Some facts and figures might help this debate (for England and Wales, where 97% of UK Muslims live, Census 2001). 46% born in the UK, 52% under age of 25, only 32% are economically active (cf. nearly half general pop.), 9% are students (cf. 3% gen. pop.), 27% live in socially-rented properties. Many young Muslims live in poor inner city areas. How does anyone think that addressing issues of social exclusion can solves problems of "identity", if at all? And what role can religion play in this? If eating fish & chips,wearing a pinstripe suit makes me british so be it,as this is ok with Islam but if supporting british troops in iraq makes me british than I am definitely not that.I have heard people say "why don`t we go back to where we came from?" We cannot go back, we all came from our mothers womb just like all other humans.I am a muslim living in UK no more no less, our values are extracted from our sources i.e Quran & Sunnah and not from situation or circumstances past or present. Allah (swt) created Man. Those who believed in him and the Message of Prophet Muhammed (saaw) are from the Ummah of Islam. Islam taught us that we are One Ummah. Not a British Ummah or British Muslim. Allah (swt) says in Surah (23:52). Your are One Ummah and I (Allah) Am Your Rabb. He did not distinguish between us except in the issue of Iman and Kuffar. We are on Iman and therefore If Allah (swt) describes us as Muslims, as in Surah Haj (22:78), where did British, Pakistan or Arab come into it. Sallaams
Dr. Navidul Haq (at the bottom) is spot on. We often act like a bunch of hypocrites. One moment we say we dislike nationalism, but are so pro Pakistan, or Iran, etc. I live in Britain, and love my country. Religious tolerance is abundance when compared to countries where Muslims are the majority. All these criticisms levelled at British soceiety with regards sexual freedom, etc - if you are a good Muslim,it wouldn't affect u and set an example. If you can't, then think about your values! An individual is defined by his/her values, so when we look to the muslims throughout the world not just in the UK they see themselves as one collective people not divided by borders (despite the efforts of the west).
Salam,
asalaamu alaykum
British or are we Muslim? It is not one of passports, afternoon tea and a stiff upper lip but more fundamentally one about values, culture and identity. Clearly there is vast difference in those espoused by Islam, and those that are British. If Muslims are to remain and be characterised as Muslims, they must understand and uphold nothing but the Islamic culture. Losing this culture and identity will mean the loss of everything that Islam stands for. The only identity I believe is relevant is that of Islam, my allegiance is to Allah and his Messenger (SAW) and unity is with the believers. I happen to reside/was born in UK. My duty is the same regardless of geography, ie adhere to Islam comprehensively. A British Muslim?
I feel proud to be known as British Muslim and on the top of that I feel also proud to be known as SHIA MUSLIM The Westerners who live/work in the Arab/Muslim countries say they are "ex-pats": they do not integrate, they maintain their Western culture, lifestyle and habits & are proud of them, & display them to the locals to adopt. In the same way, the Muslims in the West must consider themselves as "ex-pats", & be proud to maintain our Islamic lifestyle, & resist any call to reject it for the bankrupt diseased culture we find here. One day we will return home to an Islamic State so lets be ready for it. i view myself as a muslim living in Britain.Islam is a complete way of life and has soloutions for all problems.Our identity is clear we are muslims and our values,beliefs and principples have to emantae from our aqeeeda.
I am very dissapointed that people evenconsider this question as valid. The reality of what you are saying is like "are you half muslim and half non-muslim". I am sure that you are well aware of the fact that our creator did not address us in the above ways but just as Muslims. Therefore anyone that is calling for muslims to be recognised as Pakistani muslims or even British Muslims is working with those who are trying to water down the pure thoughts of Islam.
We are Muslims Period.
Aslamu Alykum i am muslim and proud to be one not a britsh one can you not see what brtish goverment is trying to do to the muslim they are trying to intergrate us into the western society we as muslim should not intergrate or isolate we should interact and expoes the western way of life of demcorcy the kafir system Mr. Ramzan,has missed the point. There are within so-called Muslim societies many of the ills he has enumerated. That does not make anyone living in those societies any better Muslims than we are. As long as the Government of the country in which live, does not prevent us from salaat, Saum and the payment of Zakat and allows us to go for the Pilgrimage to Makkah then I see no conflict for a Muslim living in such societies. It is our choice that we want to live here, we're not forced to do so I am a Muslim living in Britain; I don't believe that Muslim should be divided based on nationalism because, Quran and Sunnah have prohibited it.
Quite simply, if muslims in the country do not feel "british" as many here say they do not. And if they feel no loyalty to the country then why come here, and accept british citizenship?.
Alot of people miss this point no one has a choice where they are born like me British born i had no influence in this decision so how can i then use this as a criteria to tie my self to a land and society it would be irrational. Rather Islam is a political and intellectual creed based on rationale so it dictates who i am a Muslim part of a glorious noble ummah and loyalty soley lies with not Britain or Bangladesh but Allah (swt) his messenger (saw)and where ever muslims are on the earth. Asalamu Alykum
I once met 2 'reformed' extremists from both side of the religious divide in N. Ireland, who now professed due 2 their Christian faith not to harbour those old hatreds any more. But when I spoke 2 them they had another identity equally divisive: anyone not working class seemed 2 be despised. I guess that's why this question doesn't interest me much. Identity depends on context. I can't help the fact that 2 other Muslims I'm English & 2 other Englishis I'm Muslim. & a Yorkshireman in the South... Dr Navidul Haq Khan, what alot of rubbish!! i shall remind u what being a British means...
Saying that your a 'British Muslim' is like saying that you are a 'Christian-Muslim' or a 'Capitalist-Muslim' - the source of our values is only the Quran and Sunnah - nothing else. British values include believing in homosexuality as legitimate, that human beings have the right to determine laws regardless of what Allah says, etc. Islam and Kufr (non-Islam) cannot be mixed. We are only Muslims, where we reside is irrelevent to our identity. at the time of the prophet mohammed saw,there were some sahaba who were sent to abyssinia for protection.the muslims refused to bow to Negus the king cause they only bowed to the creator,even though this was the law,tradtion,ethics and customs in abyssinia.the muslims settled in abyssinia not as abyssinian muslims but as muslims in abyssinia.
Was the Prophet of Islam Makkan or Muslim? it is the same question.
IF A BAG OF FISH&CHIPS A NIGHT AT THE STAGS HEAD CORANATION STREET & EASTENDERS PROMSCUITY,YOB CULTURE,CHILDREN NOT KNOWING WHO THERE FATHERS ARE, A SOCIETY DRIVEN BY BOOZE.FAGS& ECSTASY THEN I THANK THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS& THE EARTH THAT IM NOT BRITISH BUT MUSLIM. aslam i am only muslim born in britain not a british muslim and i only go by the sharia not by the so called freedom that democrcy says aslam naveed G To counteract James's derogatory comments about Muslim idleness and ineptitude I would say this:As British citizens we work and pay taxes.Historically,our Muslim ancestors in the Middle East made profound mathematical and scientific contributions. What did the Brits do?From the 1700's onwards they pilfered and plundered colonies not to mention India,where they exploited her resources and intensified communal conflicts via a policy of divide & rule.Profound contribution.Something to be proud of? In short i would say that the mosque leaders are failing to convey the true spirt of what being muslim means in a western struck society and secondly paretns are failing miserably at providing the right islamic upbringin to children. Most communities follow cultural traditions from back home which have very little to do with islam and thus we are left with a confused new genration of muslim youth who dont know what their true identity is. The muslims of brtiain need help and fast. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "British Muslim". There are only Muslims who live in Britain, usually because it affords them a much higher standard of living than would any Muslim country. Muslims use Britain but do not belong to or contribute to it in any way that enhances the lives of British people. Rehana Patel hits the nail on the head. Nationalities are superflous, 'imagined communities' which have been created to give those in power at the time lasting power through the ages by dividing people up into illusionary ideals. [43:26] Abraham said to his father and his people, "I disown what you worship. [43:27]Only the One who initiated me can guide me.[43:28] This example(of Abraham)was rendered an everlasting lesson for subsequent generations; perhaps they redeem their souls." Illusions! The concept of identity contains many ambiguities. Nontheless I will attempt to define my Muslim identity with the words; 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger.'Such a strong conviction does not require a national identity created from artificial borders and boundaries. Although Islamic identity is transnational the Ummah has divided into factions. Unfortunately, the Ummah is like a house thats on fire with nobody willing to pass the bucket of water on. i'd like to ask halima, and others who share his view, what is so wrong with the british/western way of life? if it is so terrible, why choose to live here? at the bottom of this page Dr. Navidul Haq Khan offers a view that i hope is shared by all muslims. The question of identity has come to the forefront since 9/11 muslims living in the west have been forced to choose which side of the fence they are to answer this we need to understand the basis of the islamic belief. The islamic aqeedah is spiritual and political hence encompassing all spheres life. Islam transcends all nationalities thus providing muslims with a clear understanding of their identify, that they are muslim were ever they are. The tag of british muslim is a pretext to integrate Assalam-0-Alaikum!!!
What home?: The modern Gipsy - No real home - but I feel part of the Islamic Nation.
THERE ARE TWO SIDES TOO EVERY COIN,THE PROBLEM IS MUSLIMS ARE NOT SHOWING THE OTHER SIDE i.e. WHAT IS IMAN WHAT IS WORSHIP WHAT IS OUR SOCIAL DEALINGS WHAT IS OUR CHARACTER AND FINALLY OUR WEALINGS & DEALINGS WHEN EVER MUSLIMS STAYED FIRM ON THESE 5 PRINCIPLES THE HELP OF ALLAH WAS WITH THE MUSLIMS. LETS GET BACK TOO BASICS ALL!. Muslims have to waken up in the uk.
This is for Mr. Ingleby from Copenhagen. To take up a position of hate for a group of people who repel you because of what they do or say is very easy. However, one cannot assume that the actions of a section of the Muslim population necessarily represent the teachings
It's interesting that some of you,
I am happy to be a British Muslim. I am sometimes pickup upon because of my ethnic. But I remember my Lord and continue life. I do not feel british at all
I am a Muslim, but Muslim identiy in modern times is too often a justification for reactionary thinking and political allegience.
I'm a white English-born convert to Islam, and personally I feel like I'm stuck between the two sometimes. Obviously the behaviour of non-muslims disgusts and upsets me all the time, but then on the other hand the behaviour of the muslims across the UK and the world embarrasses me just as much. It's hard to tell me friends about this beautiful religion when people calling themselves muslims commit crimes just as bad as the Western world's, and don't even practice our religion properly. Being a British Muslim of Pakistani origin does not pose any problems at all. The State does not obstruct my right to carry out my religious obligations. I am a practising Muslim and a loyal British Citizen. If the State starts interfering with my religious obligations I will struggle, within the Law to change things. If unsuccessful I will migrate. This is the example of the Holy Prophet (salAllaho alaihe wa sallam). I believe that some groups preaching hatred are leading double lives. |
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